> It is a shame that today,, that the young
> people just don't seen to care about there
> past,,if they can't break into it,,, or
> destroy insome way,??? but now another
> histority landmark is now gone I do not know
> what is the answer,,but maybe something what
> is great to them will be detroyed in the
> same way,, NOW it is the old saying,,,WHAT
> COMES AROUND,,GOES AROUND???...NUFF SAID

Its comments above that make me want to quit the rail preservation field.

I have just about had it with the generalizations here, which seem to get worse as the thread goes along. I'm 27. I take the generalized comments against today's "young people" to heart. Its comments like this that drive those of us who never saw steam in Class 1 service, who grew up chasing F-Units, early GP's and Alco's, to throw up OUR hands. I truly thought that after the ARM/TRAIN convention people in our community began to realize the desparate NEED we have to get younger people involved. Instead, I hear comments from what, IMHO, seem like a bunch of children themselves who don't want to give up their toys, and love to blame everything on "those darned kids". Come on; we are not all that bad, and until those who should know better begin to stop make such generalizations they will continue turning those my age and younger away from rail preservation. What will be left? A bunch of glorified scrap yards. Think about it.

I would ask if Hume might pull this. Mr. (Or Ms.?)Fahey's generalizations were about enough, don't you think?

TJ Gaffney



Port Huron Museum

tjgaffney@phmuseum.org

21 years old.
Been volunteering in museums since 16.
Work/volunteer at (ironicly enough) roundhouse museum for two years now.

To counter a generalization with another generalization: at times there seem to be an equal number of stupid kids and skeptics/curmudgeons out there. Both manage to do long term damage.

I am by no means defending the jerks that did that, just don't think bemoaning an entire generation will do any good.

Not complaining about the general status quo out there, either. I am extremely pleased with the enthusiasm of the VAST majority of folks I have had the pleasure of meeting. Thank you for teaching, training, and encouragement, those of you that do.



angelinanotgrimk@aol.com

People like Angel are the reasons I'm staying. She is the hope of the future in many ways; we need more like her (and there are some, if we choose to look) Angel, your comments proved to be much more eloquent than mine; thank you. I apologize if I inferred that I have not appreciated the help from those who have been at this much longer than myself; only that the assumption that we, simply because of our lack of age or experience, can't or don't bring anything of worth or value to the table is, well, a slap in the face.

TJG

> 21 years old.
> Been volunteering in museums since 16.
> Work/volunteer at (ironicly enough)
> roundhouse museum for two years now.

> To counter a generalization with another
> generalization: at times there seem to be an
> equal number of stupid kids and
> skeptics/curmudgeons out there. Both manage
> to do long term damage.

> I am by no means defending the jerks that
> did that, just don't think bemoaning an
> entire generation will do any good.

> Not complaining about the general status quo
> out there, either. I am extremely pleased
> with the enthusiasm of the VAST majority of
> folks I have had the pleasure of meeting.
> Thank you for teaching, training, and
> encouragement, those of you that do.


Port Huron Museum

tjgaffney@phmuseum.org

I'm 21 and have been volunteering for the Siouxland Historical RR Association of Sioux City for nearly 4 years. It saddens me to hear that older railfans are not only contemptuous of younger people, but blame them for everything that happens to railroad property, abandoned or otherwise. Don't you think that it just as easily could have been a bunch of old drunks as bored kids with no respect for history who accidentally torched the building? I've seen "railfans" take builder's plates from "historic property," (abandoned engines and cars) stand in the right-of-way to get "the perfect picture" of a train (which, oddly enough, will look almost exactly like every other slide in their collection), and steal brake wheels from the SHRA's museum. These guys weren't young, they were middle-aged and older.

If you so sorely want to impress on youth that railroads and railroading are important, you old guys are the ones that need to start it. How many of you take your wives, sons, or daughters with you when you decide to go chase some train halfway across the country? How many of you, when faced with a rookie railfan or preservationist, only makes fun of his or her inexperience rather than assistint the newcomer in learning about your passion? How many of you pass off railroading as a guy thing and won't even talk about all things train-related with young women, even when they are docents at museums?

I suggest that next time you look at yourselves before jumping to the ubiquitous "darned kids" excuse.

Griffin

griffinkittycat@yahoo.com

Some kids suck because their parents do. Kids practice what they learn. If they don't have respect and appreciation for historic things, our generation has failed in our mission to instill it in them.

We desperately need to attract talented and committed young people into our diminishing decrepit ranks if railroad preservation is to survive past 2020. I know few professionals in railroad preservation that don't fully appreciate this fact - the majority of the difficulty seems to come from volunteer centered groups without full time leadership and highly politicized and egocentric management. Unfortunately, these groups which need the resources of youthful energy most are least capable of admitting it.

I just had to cancel 2 days of work on a nice light pacific after having been T-Boned by an 82 year old driver running through a red light on medication. I would love to have 2 or 3 healthy young apprentices help with the heavier work under my supervision and instruction so the job can proceed while I am half gone. Any volunteers?

Dave

irondave@bellsouth.net

>
My post doesn't really fit here but it is about Museums. About a month or so ago someone posted a link here ( I think) telling how they handled relations with contractors working in the museum so as to avoid fire danger. Plastic piping vs sweat joints, use of torches, etc.
Our local area museum officials were very interested when I told them what I had read and wanted a copy of it.
Does anyone else remember that post? Can you help us out?
Thanks in advance, Jim

Its comments above that make me want to quit
> the rail preservation field.

> I have just about had it with the
> generalizations here, which seem to get
> worse as the thread goes along. I'm 27. I
> take the generalized comments against
> today's "young people" to heart.
> Its comments like this that drive those of
> us who never saw steam in Class 1 service,
> who grew up chasing F-Units, early GP's and
> Alco's, to throw up OUR hands. I truly
> thought that after the ARM/TRAIN convention
> people in our community began to realize the
> desparate NEED we have to get younger people
> involved. Instead, I hear comments from
> what, IMHO, seem like a bunch of children
> themselves who don't want to give up their
> toys, and love to blame everything on
> "those darned kids". Come on; we
> are not all that bad, and until those who
> should know better begin to stop make such
> generalizations they will continue turning
> those my age and younger away from rail
> preservation. What will be left? A bunch of
> glorified scrap yards. Think about it.

> I would ask if Hume might pull this. Mr. (Or
> Ms.?)Fahey's generalizations were about
> enough, don't you think?

> TJ Gaffney


rrfanjim@mvn.net

I think this is the one:

History On fire
bilburns1313@ameritech.net

>Griffin, in response to your point that a prior post shouldn't automatically assume that damage was caused by youth, you have a point. In a court of law, (i'm not a lawyer, but i watch them on TV), I think opposing counsel would have a good time skewering the assertion as unsubstantiated, hearsay or some other dismissive term.

In the court of public opinion however, legal rules of evidence don't apply. Perception is reality. In truth, vandalism is a crime of youth, particularly teenagers. Statistics show that teenagers commit the vast majority of vandalism. Which isn't of course, to exhonerate the older folks from the things you cited. A good deal of the problem the "railfan" (not the enthusiast or preservation, their different) has been earned through theft, tresspass and general irresponsibility, hence the term "foamer".

I applaud your volunteering, but you are an exception. Damn few 20 something year olds have the focus, the dedication and the humility it takes to volunteer @ a railroad museum, especially in an operating craft. Continue the good work and understand, the post was probably right, even if there wasn't a fair trial before the hangin'.

You might wish that attitude didn't exist because its not fair that there's an automatic dismissal of a few good eggs like yourself, but unfortunately until teenagers quit being teenagers, there isn't a whole lot you can do other than conduct yourself as maturely as possible.

I cannot say that I have had quite the same experiance concerning older railfans. I ahve been working as a passenger train conductor for almost ten years with the Tennessee Valley Railroad in Chattanooga. Many of our museum's older members are very concerned in teaching those visitors that pass through our doors about our railroading history. True there are some older railfans and railroaders who are contemptuous of younger people. However, my general observations are that this is few and far between and that in some cases, the contempt of an older railroader or railfan is specific to one or two young people for individual reasons.

I will also say that railfans do not take items off of locomotives, rolling stock or railroad property-thiefs do. Most thiefs do tend to be older as they have to know what it is they are going after. Most criminal acts involving juveniles involving property damage tend to fall into the area of vandelism. Having the railroad background that I have and having been a criminal justice major as an undergraduate student, I do not find it hard to believe that kids would torch a building. I've known that local kids used to break into our railyard and steal torpedos and fusees from the steam locomotives at night. To them, those were just large firecrackers, never mind that the kids could have been permanently maimed by them.

As for impressing the importance of railroads and railroading on youth, a lot of the older members are working quite hard to support the improvement of our museum facilities so that we can do just that. Concerning the involvement of family in this pasttime, I know many people who have or are doing that. I also know a few members whose railfanning enthusiam won them a divorce and I am certiin that they tried to share their passion with their significant others. Also, I will share my passion for railroad history and preservation with anyone who will listen. Yes, our museum has had some female volunteers and even one female engine service employee who was a better fireman/fireperson than most of her male counterparts!

Tennessee Valley Railroad Museum
envlink@voyageronline.net

> I think this is the one:

Bill; This may be a double post, but yes, that
is the one I was trying to find. I have already made copies for our Centralia Area Historic Museum
officials. Thanks again. Jim


rrfanjim@mvn.net

Griffin, I am assuming that I am one of the ones you are referring to by the negative comments about younguns'. Well, to tell you the truth I'm only 32, I started vounteering at the local museum before I could drive and dedicated 8 years of my life to a restoration project. I would still be there if it were not for the marriage and two young kids taking up my free time. As far as talking about trains with young ladies, yes, I did that..even took my wife before we were married to Cass railfan weekend and steamtown the same year. But I digress, I am the minority, there were no other 16 year old volunteers at the museum I was at, and if there was a single person my age that was interested in trains at my high school, I didn't know about them. I did know all too well the kids that went out on devils night setting fire to things, I did know the kids who spray painted graffiti until their arms hurt, the ones who shoplifted stores blind, just for the thrill (not because they actually wanted the merchandise). I am now a school teacher, and not much has changed, there are a few responsible, dedicated individuals in my classes who I would trust to wax my acura, but unfortunately there are more who would like to steal it for joyriding purposes.

b.hume@rogers.com

> It is a shame that today,, that the young
> people just don't seen to care about there
> past,,

Its also a shame today that older folks don't care enough to pass on what they know to the few members of the younger generation who DO appreciate the past.

When all the Rich Melvins, Steve Lees, Linn Moedingers(sp?) and Doyle McCormacks are gone, who will run and maintain 844, 3985, 765, 4449, 700, 261, etc.?

I'm afraid that by the time I have grandkids there won't be ONE 4-8-4 running to strike awe into them as RDG 2102 did for me when I was 8 years old and I saw her on the Blue Mountain and Reading.

"young people" are made up of your children and grandchildren. In the end, where does the blame really lie?

-Brian Wowak, 22yrs old.

mrwowak@yahoo.com

I have been around railroading as a hobby in real and model form since I was 3. Really.

This thread has me so upset that I can barely type. I will not argue any of the points, and there are so many valid ones.

Instead, I will say that what has me thoroughly upset and beside myself is that, at age 34, I am not one of those "damn kids" anymore!

So, do I go directly to "old coot" or can I hang out in middle-age management for awhile?

Either way, I welcome mature youngsters into the hobby and business.


Rob

> I have been around railroading as a hobby in
> real and model form since I was 3. Really.

> This thread has me so upset that I can
> barely type. I will not argue any of the
> points, and there are so many valid ones.

> Instead, I will say that what has me
> thoroughly upset and beside myself is that,
> at age 34, I am not one of those "damn
> kids" anymore!

> So, do I go directly to "old coot"
> or can I hang out in middle-age management
> for awhile?

> Either way, I welcome mature youngsters into
> the hobby and business.

> :-)

> Rob

I'm 20 right now and have been hooked on trains since I was 3 or 4 myself. Speaking on the point of the relatively few teens involved and efforts to get them involved, I'd liked to mention RailCamp, a program I put a post about two or three weeks ago here. Started by the NRHS and Steamtown in 1998, it brings 24 high-school aged teen railfans together for an entire week to learn about railroad historical interpretation, operations, restorations, and careers. Both years I went (in 1999 and 2000) I was with 22 or 23 teens who like me all liked trains. Some, like me, were already involved NRHS chapters or similar historical, model railroading/live steam groups, or some facet of railroading/railfanning like narrow gauge history, steam, diesel, or passenger rail advocacy. Since I went in 2000, one of my fellow campers is now working in the Strasburg steam shop, one is attending a community college locomtive engineer, another is in a transportaion college program, one is the VP of an NRHS chapter, and another is the editor of the "Teen Scene" column in Railpace Newsmagazine. If any of you get R&R, this month's issue has a four page article written by an attendee from last year, another shorter account from an attendee last year to. This year up to another 48 teens will be in Scranton in mid/late July to take part in RailCamp 2002 (for more info visit www.railcamp.com)
Other efforts I've heard or read about is a teen volunteer program starting-up at Spencer, a youth photo day co-sponosored by TRAINS and the NRHS for this summer, and an explorer Boys Scout post that's part of another NRHS chapter. There may well be more. I do think that the necessary attention to teen railfans like me is starting to be given, though I do think more is needed to produce the "next generation" Don Philips alluded to in TRAINS a couple of years ago

JBeutel611@aol.com

I became active in rail operation/preservation at the age of 14. I am now 35 and am also a teacher teaching my old class in the vo-tech school I went to. The "kids today" are facing more pressure than ever to do bad stuff, it is everywhere. To be a kid and look "bad", "urban", like a drug dealer, or some dirtball on the Jerry Springer show is popular. To live that way is just the next step and kids are doing it. It is something we have to deal with.

Tom Gears

Forgotten Delaware
tgears1@comcast.net