I had a pleasant chat with Steve Sandberg today and learned a great deal about what happened between the museum and the Friends, what the future holds for 261, and perhaps more importantly the directions in which the Steve and the Friends are headed in the future. Steve suggested I write this and reviewed the text before I posted it.

First of all, let me dispel the various rumors that have been floated that there is still some hope that 261 will remain in the hands of the Friends of the 261, and the Sandbergs and continue its excursion career. There isn't. The trust that existed between the Friends and the Museum is broken, possibly beyond repair. In this, I agree with Steve, after being stonewalled for literally years in trying to obtain a lease extension, there's no reason to believe that the museum will become a more acceptable business "partner" in the ongoing future of their locomotive. So work has already begun to prepare the 261 for its return to the museum.

Steve says that he is determined to return the locomotive to the museum in better shape than he received it. First of all, 261 is a great locomotive and Steve believes that it should not be penalized for the museum's recalictrance; secondly, Steve's group wants to demonstrate to other locomotive owners that his is a responsible organization and they can trust that if they lease their locomotive to his organization they will treat it with the same respect.

There are a LOT of appliances, devices, etc on the 261 that didn't come with it from the museum. They were purchased by Sandberg and/or Northstar Rail. Items that were placed on the locomotive during its restoration are going to be dealt with in one of three ways:

First, if Steve cannot absolutely document the purchase or acquisition of a component that was obtained for the restoration, then that component will be donated to the locomotive (not the museum).

Second, if a component purchased by Steve, the Friends or Northstar would not be of use in the preparation, restoration or operation of another locomotive, then those components will be donated to the 261. For example, the bearing boxes and bearings upon which 261's tender rides would have little or no value in the restoration of another steam locomotive. So back they go with the locomotive even though they were purchased by Steve & Co.

Third, if a component was purchased or acquired as a gift, or a loan, and the documentation is in place, and the component would have value in the restoration of another locomotive, then that component will stay with the Friends. A couple of examples are in order: first of all, the 261 did not have an intact, operable steam gauge. One was purchased (for $1700) and installed in the 261. That steam gauge will be very useful in the restoration of another locomotive, and will, of course, be retained. Same with the mechanical lubricators. The 261's had been removed at some point, BEFORE it was leased to Steve and company, and replacements were purchased. Those don't go back.

Loaned items, of course, go back to their owner. And donations in kind, things built for the 261 by volunteeers and which might be used or valuable elsewhere may be sent to that elsewhere. As an example, the cab windows of 261 were custom built in the Twin Cities in 1993, and rightly belong to the Friends. They're not of any potential use in restoring another locomotive but might, for example be donated to the IRM, whose 265 has windows that have dry rotted into oblivion.

So 261 goes home to the museum, and it will look good. Rejacketed, polished, pretty and inoperable. Whether the museum can find someone who can return it to operation or not is certainly debatable. My personal opinion is that it is NOT bloody likely.

Any potential future operator of the 261 has to face many of the same problems that Steve & Co. faced at the outset of this adventure in 1992. Where will they obtain the parts they need to replace what wasn't on the 261 in the first place? I suppose the museum could, if it desired, allow a potential new operator to scavenge the needed parts from its fleet of non-operating locomotives. Rolling stock? One of the reasons that 261's excursion were at least break even was simple: Steve's fleet of Amtrak certified passenger rolling stock made the operation of such an excursion vastly less expensive than it would have been had he needed to lease cars for each trip. And where are they going to run? My suspicion is that any potential operator with the skills necessary to restore the locomotive back to operation also has the skills to recognize that it isn't very doable, or even a good business idea. What you need for the 261 to find a new operator is very, very deep pockets, great technical skills and an absolute lack of business acumen.

So...bye bye to 261. What's next?

When Steve says that he's considering ALL their available options he isn't joking. A lot of park and museum locomotives are under consideration as possible restoration candidates. Whether any of these gets selected or not depends upon a relatively simple equation: if the owner, whether municipal or museum views the potential transaction as a cash cow, you can be absolutely certain that it won't happen. If they set a reasonable price, reasonable conditions and just want to see "their" locomotive operate then there's a chance.

Several museums that have talked with Steve have the same problem: one group within the museum says, "Hey, after Green Bay, we can look like heroes! We'll get great publicity, and it will enhance our visibility and reputation" Another faction thinks "Hey, if he wants it, it must be worth a fortune, how much can we milk this transaction for?"

Municipalities are even more interesting. One city, whose locomotive would be a nifty candidate also thinks its a good idea, but a very loud and vocal minority in the city (3 or 4 people) are actively decrying "outsiders" attempts to "steal" their locomotive, even though there's not a mosquitoes chance in a blast furnace that the locomotive will ever turn a wheel under power again in its current situation. One notably entertaining example of this involved a fellow who announced on the internet that a particular locomotive could NOT be a restoration candidate because its boiler was "pitted". I'd be happy to remind this gentleman that a west coast locomotive which is beautifully restored and happily operational had a hole in the boiler that you could put your fist through before the restoration began. That exceeds "pitted" by a tad.

So what is Steve & Co. going to do? At the moment that hasn't been resolved. I jokingly asked Steve if he'd at least eliminate a few contenders. He said that it is very unlikely that he'd be doing 1522, 614, 611 or 1218. Duh. 265? I got the strong impression that Steve would like to do something completely new, and that 265 was less than likely because of that. I know he'd love to do a Burlington locomotive, but there's certainly doubt as to whether one can be obtained. So....now for a completely unsatisfying answer:

Negotiations continue with the owners of a number of locomotives in search of the Friends NEXT restoration project. I'll tell ya what: it's going to be interesting, and just to fuel the rumor mill one of the projects Steve is considering would almost certainly leave people utterly stunned for a good while. Expect an announcement within a couple of months folks. It's gonna be fun.

Whatever Steve decides to do, I've agreed to photograph the progress on a weekly basis and post it to a website somewhere. Sit back, relax and wait a month or two, this is gonna be REAL interesting.

Doug

Noting that Mr. Sandberg reviewed this prior to post, makes it that much more interesting. FWIW, I hope he finds a renewable CB&Q heavy Hudson, but whatever he turns to, wherever he goes for motive power, our best wishes go with him.

As for 261, we should all hope that its owners can find a way to heat her boiler again. She deserves to stretch her legs, particularly after being restored to motion once again.

In all seriousness, is there an address we can send Mr. Sandberg a note of appreciation and encouragement?

Joshua

Thanks to steve and the Friends for all their years of hard work bring this beautiful locomotive back to life. I wish them well, and can't wait to learn of their next project.



just as wild as some other suggestions...how about C&O 2700....definatly needs some TLC, and deserves a fate better than what its getting.

Dave,

I'm pretty sure we'll see 2700's condition and appearance improve within the next 12 to 18 months. The Dennison Depot Museum has obtained 6 lightweight passenger cars from Wisconsin, has started restoration of them for excursions, and has secured a grant to do a cosmetic restoration on the 2700.

Rob Gardner

"First, if Steve cannot absolutely document the purchase or acquisition of a component that was obtained for the restoratn anythinion, then that component will be donated to the locomotive (not the museum)."


Interesting thought, and I understand the sentiment, but as a practical matter-locomotives can't take posession of or own anything.

Some sort of earmark or attachment with a lot of 6010.

Class act going in, class act going out. Best wishes.

dave

So I take it from this post that Steve is determined to find another steam locomotive to replace the 261 and not just throw in the towel altogether? I can't say I would blame him if he did, but I'm excited about the prospects for the future. At least 261 got to operate for nearly 16 years which is 4 better than N&W 611 and more than 3 times that of the 1218.

I am curious how they will rename the group, obviously Friends of 261 is no longer valid. It will be interesting to see whether the passenger cars remain in Milwaukee Road paint as well.

I would personally like to see a Burlington O1A, but understand that is not likely. Anyway I'll be anxiously anticipating whatever arrangement Mr. Sandburg and company are able to work out.

I wish I had a restorable mainline steam locomotive right about now, I would offer it to Mr. Sandberg for $1.00 per year just to see it come alive again.

[quote="Steven Ashley"]So I take it from this post that Steve is determined to find another steam locomotive to replace the 261 and not just throw in the towel altogether? I can't say I would blame him if he did, but I'm excited about the prospects for the future. At least 261 got to operate for nearly 16 years which is 4 better than N&W 611 and more than 3 times that of the 1218.

I am curious how they will rename the group, obviously Friends of 261 is no longer valid. It will be interesting to see whether the passenger cars remain in Milwaukee Road paint as well.

I would personally like to see a Burlington O1A, but understand that is not likely. Anyway I'll be anxiously anticipating whatever arrangement Mr. Sandburg and company are able to work out.[/quote]

I would expect that "Railroading Heritage of Midwest America" will become the accepted name for the time being. This is the incorporated name for the organization. "Friends of 261" became the support group for the locomotive. The name "FO 261" was more descriptive and recognizable to the general public and the fans. The "Friend of XXXX" seems to have worked well for a couple of other organizations as well, so it would probably be a good guess that if Ol' 97 is restored to operation, the accepted or nickname would be "Friends of Ol' 97".

I think you'll see the car fleet remain in Milwaukee Road paint for the forseeable future. At $15,000 to $20,000 a pop, or more, to do a good paint job on a passenger car, just repainting the existing fleet would cost well over $100,000. The money in the bank now is there for a locomotive rebuild, not car painting. As it is, the newest acquisition, lounge car 3101, needs to come out of its psuedo-CofG scheme and into something closer to the rest of the cars. Realistically, the Super Dome, sleeper "Minnesota River" and Skytop should remain in Milwaukee paint for historical reasons. That is a good enough reason for me to leave everything in Milwaukee Road paint even if some other railroad's locomotive is restored to operation.

Steven, I hope you meant a Burlington O5 4-8-4 instead of an O1a 2-8-2. There is quite a bit of different between the two, particularly for what Steve's group does. A Northern is much better suited for the mainline than a Mike. I have no animosity towards an O1a, I have ridden a lot of miles behind one in particular and I'd greatly enjoy seeing another "Q" engine under steam, regardless of her number or wheel arrangement.

Anyone wishing to send a note of "thanks" to Steve can send it to the following address:

Railroading Heritage of Midwest America
4322 Lake Point Court
Shoreview, MN 55126

I'm sure your support and kind words will bolster his resolve to get another locomotive on the road in the future. Thanks for all the good thoughts.

Don C.

My thanks to Doug for the very informative posting.

Also, sincere thanks to Steve and his entire family for all they've done to keep the mainline steam torch burning brightly for these many years. I'm confident that whichever horse they choose to ride has its best years ahead of it.

And to the folks at the NRM my condolences for having made what they will sooner than later come to realize was a VERY bad business decision. For the good of the order I would ask that when they do come to that realization that they be big enough to say so publically as it might be a valuable future lesson for others??

Again, many thanks Steve and here's to many happy miles with the new horse!!!

Merry Christmas to all!! Ross Rowland

re: C&O 2700: I have heard that one of the parties who recently lost the lawsuit involving this engine is going to appeal the decision, so this engine's future is now clouded again after some positive developments in 2009. Another engine where the amount spent on it over the years in stripping it, moving it, fighting over it, etc. has been staggering.

Chris.

I would be stunned if a UP Big Boy was restored. I don't reccomend it however.
I think however its a good idea to restore a Big Boy to operational condition just to have one in condition, for the purpose of preservation actually, maybe fire it once in a while.

It would be fun tho is a DM&IR Yellowstone were done, that would be a shocker.

NRM can still cash in on 261's fun and sell videos, what not, there should be some amicable agreement about that. You have to think beyond the border on fund raising, NRM may be honking on the profits from the train runs of 261, that is blaringly obvious, reality sets in on that however.

I just hope NRM thinks beyond just the money and think they are in for the historical preservation.

cheers

Don,

My apologies. I did mean a Burlington O5 4-8-4. I'm not a Burlington expert so forgive me on my misidentified class name. I've always thought they were fairly attractive locomotives (other than the mars light above the headlight) and was born too late to see the 5632 in service before it was scrapped. I agree, I know a 2-8-2 would not be well suited for mainline steam excursions in today's mainline excursion environment.

While I'd like to see an 05 in steam again, I can understand some others arguments for a CB&Q Hudson given that there are several operable 4-8-4's and 2-8-4's in the country. I wouldn't mind another 4-8-2 since 1522 was retired in 2002. I'll be interested in hearing what locomotive is chosen and especially what the possible candidate that would "stun" people is.

Steven

You know, I've heard that some of the RR Museum of PA's collection is in pretty decent shape... an M1 would sure make for some nice mainline steam action...

Not that there's a snowball's chance of it happening, but it wouldn't be without precedent at least.