I'm not complaining about the cost to park in New Hope & Ivyland's lot- just pointing it out. Personally, I park for free in Lambertville & walk across the river bridge to New Hope.

Junior,

You bring up an interesting side discussion - the local vs. the traveler.

I have heard other operations make the argument that the locals are the bread and butter, but these tend to be operators who do not run 5-6 days a week. I think Steamtown's limited excursion schedule has resulted in a higher percentage of local riders. Someone with the park could confirm that. Seems like local marketing is enough to sell out the ice trains and the Christmas trains.

I seriously doubt the NH&I could do better with lower fares, drawing local riders. New Hope is a destination town, so targeting that demographic is pretty smart.

There's always an argument against targeting affluent demographics, as it seems to leave others in the dust. But if you can reach that market segment and make a consistent business of it, good on ya'!

If my math is correct, there are 8 tourist railroads within 70 miles of New Hope:

Wilmington & Western
West Chester
Black River & Western
Bel-Del
WK&S
Strasburg
Lehigh Gorge Scenic
NJMofT

If you look closely, I am sure you find a wide variety of demographics riding these. But each has its place. For example, if New Hope is too dear a destination, Kempton gives you a great low-cost alternative.

Only 4 of the 8 have an operable steam locomotive in regular service, though the BR&W may soon, and the LGSRR had #425 for a weekend. Only Strasburg and the NH&I are in steam almost year-round.

I am not a New Hope apologist, but I just can't find a reason to fault what they are doing.

I don't have a marketing study of Bucks to examine, but with this much competition in the region, I have a hard time picturing a local market salivating for low cost steam at New Hope. And remember, for a local market to support the line, they need to keep coming back. Would they do that, or would they sample all the options?

Look at the tourist railroad that used to be right across the river, the BR&W, which was was once a reasonably-priced 2-steam loco line and a gas-car with a variety of regular trips from Flemington to Lambertville. It has retrenched mightily, dropping service below Ringoes, spending many years without steam and operating a far less ambitious schedule.

I am NOT being critical of them, BTW.

Rather, using it to point out, that if the local market was truly the business driver in the area, wouldn't the lower-priced BR&W have been the one on the higher trajectory with every seat filled, while New Hope struggled and atrophied? Just the opposite has happened.

Makes me think, like it or not, the more affluent New Hope tourist base is just right for a route of the NH&I's caliber and pricing. And conversely, the shrinking BR&W seems to say that the locals could not support the business of operating steam year in and year out, and that the outlet shoppers Flemington draws could not support the BR&W at is fullest extent.

Thoughts?

Rob

I am truly gratified to read that the NH&I and a few others are still allowing cab rides after the position taken by the TRAINS organization. Gratified also, that the price for such a treat isn't exorbitant at least on this railroad.

Nothing, in my opinion, is more likely to transform a person with a mild interest in steam railroading, into a true enthusiast.

Glen Brewer

Rob,

You bring good points, but I would think that a local business, albeit storefront or Railroad would want to bridge the gap between the community and itself...and there is quite a gap between the RR and its neighbors. Look at the bridge W&W built with its neighbors over the years and the end results after two destructive floods. Most in and along New Hope's ROW would be just as glad to see it dead.

From Ross's point, yes, more dollars per train is good, but if you can have (talking regular trains now) 100 people paying $10 an average head, vrs 15 paying $20, why chose the higher fares over butts in the seats when you're running the same consist at about the same costs. Those extra 85 butts in the seats are producing more overall revenue from sales at the RR outside the train ticket.

I too often see NH&I running damn near empty trains, if I see that, so do others. That has a negative publicity effect. I have seen trains leave NH station with 5 people on it. That's not revenue and its poor advertising.

Look at it this way, if you pass by a restaurant and there are 3 people in the whole joint, and it can seat 100, would you say...HEY this looks like a Popular place, lets go in!...or would you say, hmm...doesn't look like its too popular, the food must suck... lets go elsewhere. Most chose the latter. Now if just 50 people tell 10 of their friends about this new place and how it looked like it was crap, without any full knowledge, do you think that it will survive? Most likely not, the word of mouth domino effect will kill it. You can hope those 3 original customers spread good word, but it will not be fast enough.

With Santa Trains, well, more power to them if they are selling out...but not by much advance, which tells me they are still getting last minute stragglers, meaning new blood, who most likely have not been there before and wouldn't ride if the little ones werent screaming they wanted to see Santa. The end result may be a deep long term hit for the RR as said family may enjoy their time, but repeat business is lost due to overall expense. I note in all of their PR, not one thing realtes to ticket costs, in fact, until you go to actually BUY your tickets, you have no idea of the cost. If they're so confident, why not publish fares out in the open?

I feel sorry for the Parking Booth and Ticket Agents who have to hear the "OH MY GOD it costs WHAT?" every day.

As for the BR&W comparison, BR&W evolution through the 80's, 90s and today, is what NH&I was in the 60's 70's, 80's. Maintenance and Management issues led both to their horrid states and yes they could have done much better, they just chose to let the ball drop. The BR&W Hisiorical trust is the NHSR of the 80's

Some towns live to serve tourists. Some towns want badly to get tourists. Some don't care.

I haven't been to New Hope since the 1960's but it sounds a lot like some other towns in the northeast - Provincetown, for an example, or perhaps Chadd's Ford - that have evolved into wealthy enclaves of real and Mc Mansions that put up with tourists to help keep local property taxes low while affording high quality civic services. Local middle class populations work in tourism and infrastructure, and actually few might live in the actual town, but commute from proximate urban centers such as Philadelphia.

Or might be like the town i lived in in Colorado, picking tourists pockets in the summer and skiers in the winter, with no wealthy polulation base just very little housing. Local residents got unadvertised discounts in local businesses. We all knew each other mostly at least by sight anyhow, and we didn't dress funny.

Towns wanting to gain tourists find ways to subsidize serving them - lots of free parking, public restrooms, etc. They work with attractions to penetration-market cooperatively and promote affordable impulse priced fares to attract the broadest possible market. The town of New Hope has tourists and wants to keep the riff-raff out and skim the cream.

Anyhow, you can't argue with results and they have chosen a business plan that seems to be working very well for them. I don't shop at Nieman Marcus but I don't bear them any ill will for serving those that do, especially since it keeps them out of my way when I shop at Target.

NOBODY should shop at wal mart, but that's another thread......

If I were nearby, I'd spring $40 for a cab ride and chance to get to know Ross. I'd also park in free parking land and hoof it in. Sounds like a bargain to me.

dave

I would be really curious how many folks use the railroad's parking lot as all-day parking, and how many never return to the railroad after being "burned" by such a fee.

Fifteen years or more ago, I remember the "target market" of the town being described as "New Yorker Magazine readers and the Hamptons."

I wonder if the B&O Museum should start charging $20 a car to "keep out the riff-raff." Hey, it's fenced parking, after all.

(OOPS- this was supposed to go with the 261 thread, as a reply to the comments regarding R&N 425 and diesels- Any way to move it?))

I rode on one of the fall NYSW trips behind 142 maybe 20 years ago. This was one of the trips from Butler to Sparta Junction and return. There was the 142, an SD-45 helper (3612?) and maybe 15 cars. Our seat was in one of the LIRR coaches, next to one of the few sliding windows, and unfortunately just above the exhaust from the genset.

We rarely heard the SD, and the 142 provided all the appropriate sights, sounds and smells. I'm sure the SD was working a bit, with a 15 car train, but it seemed to me that the 142 was doing most of the work.

Climbing east from Sparta, I wound up riding it one of the dutch doors, two cars from the head end. Both engines were working, and the diesel was having a fair bit of wheelslip problems from wet leaves. I overheard on someone's scanner a request for more power from the 142. It sounded like they went a few notches toward the corner, and opened up the throttle. Lots more stack talk, and we picked up speed a bit. Pretty dramatic-

Back in the "Emerald City" days at NHIR, I was fireman on one of the Copper Range Baldwins, before the 9 or 40 was in service for the season. We were about two minutes from pulling out, when a woman and her kids came up to the train: "I didn't know there was a train ride here". The conductor, standing on the ground alongside the cab, apologized for having a diesel, the steamer wasn't ready yet, etc. After the woman asked "What's the difference?", he thought very quickly and said, "Why, none at all" and directed her to the ticket counter-

The horrible truth is that most people don't know steam from diesel, even more so today than this story from close to thirty years ago-

To Junior:

Do you get some kind of sick thrill by putting down the business tactics of a successfully run organization? I find your persistent efforts to demote the railroad disturbing, and feel that they have no place on this board.

I haven't been to New Hope in many years, so could be all wrong, but my first thought is that the railroad needs to charge at least as much as any other parking nearby to stand a chance that there is room for their customers to park. If they are the cheap parking in town, the lot will fill up early with all day shoppers who have no intention of riding the train, leaving no place for the railroad's customers to park.

At least at one time, the Washington Metro lot at New Carrollton was the cheapest place in the area to park, so they had to raise the parking charge, but offer a lower fare if you could prove you had ridden the train.


As Sandy well knows, there is plenty of free parking on the street at the B&O Museum, although a fenced lot should be worth something in that neighborhood!

I am just pleased that the NH&I has made the decision to stay with steam. The passenger trips would sell just as well with vintage diesel locomotives. Some people have told me that they were disappointed when the ex-PRR GP-30 is not running. The current management is dedicated to steam and it is expensive to maintain and operate as we all know. The railroad markets itself to the general public and they are the ones that buy the tickets. The railfans whine and complain and it has been this way for years. The modern day forums are full of this and that is why so few people will post today. The annual railfan weekend at the NH&I was discontilnued this year due to lack of interest and there were high costs invovled with it. Take advantage and enjoy what is there, while it is there. I love steam but it is living on borrowed time.

Let alone space to park for employees! I have once even with the high price charged for the lot had to park next door because our lot was full. I have always thought those riding the train should get some sort of discount or perhaps those who pay to park get one ticket to ride free or half off. However that isn't my call.

You don't hear me knocking Strasburg, or the Valley Railroad, both sucessful, well run businesses that are in areas socked by tourists and affluent people, respectively, but don't rape their customers from the moment they turn in the driveway.

I thought in a public forum, people can place their opinions?
I assume when big banks hand out bonuses to their execs, you too sit back and say..well, that's because they were sucessful at what they do? I doubt it.

I highly agreed that the Cab rides are a deal, and recommend it but the rest is pure greed.

The poster was right about Steam vrs Diesel up there. It's fact that NH&I and NHSR (of prior years) always sold out their Santa Trains regardless of what was on the head end and usually weeks if not months in advance.

New Hope is sucessful, I give them credit for running steam now for going on 19 years, that's a big milestone considering the history of the RR from the 60's, it's also been under the same management now longer than ever before. That does not mean they're immune to criticism.

Ask the people OUTSIDE the cab what comments are passed every time the bill is tallied, then get back to me. I have posted before from a public's point of view, and yet I seem to get flack because its not in line with what the railfan posters on here want to believe. Rose colored glasses are always fun to look through.

Talk to the Mom and Dad who take their kids up there, unknowing of the fares since they're not published, and then face the option of A; turning around and going home, totally destroying their kids day, or B; Sucking it up and shelling out $200 for an hour and never going back.

I'd rather have repeat customers than people that will never return.

Junior,
Thanks for the frank analysis. You aren't vindictive, argumentative or slandering. Maybe a bit pissy, but if that is your assessment of the public situation, we should be aware of it. I think that some of the heritage rail trains do keep out the riff raff, such as dinner trains, wine trains, and the ill fated long distance cruise trains. If the failure of AOE and its successor was not an indicator of this recession, I don't know what is.

I was a volunteer at a museum, and I remember our ticket sellers would point out to a family, that buying the "Family Membership" to the museum was cheaper than fares for two adults and three kids. I think folks appreciated that, and I hope one or two of their kids are still members to this day... but you never know...
O.

Hey Ross.
Are you just trying to keep your chops in shape or are you gearing up for something in the future?

I fully agree that Juniors certainly entitled to his opinions and that diverging opinions are good for the discourse and very necessary for all of us to learn from. His point on the phantom fares is just plain wrong. The North Pole/Santa trains carry 90% advance reservations people and 99.9% of them bought their tickets on the ...www.newhoperailroad.com...website where the various fares are clearly listed. It's also interesting to note that the premium fare Parlour cars are always the first to sell out. Yes, the parking isn't cheap but it isn't a cheap town and what they get to park is obviously competitive or their lot wouldn't be full.

I make a point to mingle with the guests next to the steam engine before every trip, do photos with the kids etc., and many I pose with have just been on the ride and nearly all are VERY complimentary of their experience. I can also report that we have many repeat families to whom it has become a family tradition...so we must be doing something right!!

Another important point is that steam still reigns there because Paul Nichini and his senior management team love steam and are dedicated to seeing it continue. There's little or no doubt that diesel substitution would make the operation simpler,easier and cheaper....but not the same!!

Glad to report that the journal fix was successful and #40 ran like a swiss watch yesterday!!!

Ross Rowland


P.S- Hey Steve, Some of Both !!! It's called the Yellow Ribbon Express