I have nothing to do with Junior, and I don't think my criticisms were necessarily negative. I thought they were fairly constructive. You don't think there could be more than one person out there who might be critical of NH&I? Just for the record, I don't harbor any personal ill will towards anyone at NH&I from the top down. I enjoyed my time working there for the most part, and they're all good people. I intended my criticisms to be purely on a professional standpoint. It's nothing personal, just business. I just think they could be doing much better, that's all. I'm not going grey over it.

It is interesting to consider it from a marketing perspective. Lots of possibilities. Choices made by the community and the railroad are interdependent. Other in town merchants choices mix in (or not) as well.

If the town has chosen a skim-the-cream strategy and it is implementing to expectations, the railroad can't choose a penetration strategy except as a subset of the skimmed cream. Unless, of course, the railroad decided to outmarket beyond the town with a broader penetration strategy, which would not necessarily fit in to the town's, which might lead at best to a Pyrrhic victory and a lot of local ill will. What if the RR chose another blue-collar on line town as its operating base, and New Hope as a "destination"? How would hundreds of budget conscious, average Joes and their families be treated in their New Hope layover? Now, how would this change if town visitation were adversely impacted by recession, say to perhaps a 50% loss? Short term VS long term?

We can't lose sight of the validity of a skim-the-cream strategy as being a valid and appropriate choice under some circumstances. It hasn't hurt Rolex and Rolls Royce. It is one probably unfamiliar and perhaps uncomfortable from most of our perspectives, as very few of us have the opportunity to consider it - too busy trying to get all possible butts in seats at lowest possible impulse prices.

What if - in their market - NH&I IS charging the lowest rational impulse price?

dave

The lesson provided by this example is apparently simple and transparent:

Excursion lines, to cover their costs, should only locate in areas that will, in the future, gentrify and become increasingly upscale, expensive, and exclusive--or have already done so.

The Railroad Museum of Long Island should relocate to the Hamptons.

The B&O Museum should relocate to Fells Point (the upscale waterfront old-town neighborhood). The National Capitol Trolley Museum should relocate to DC's Georgetown. Savannah's Roundhouse Museum should relocate to River Street. The Cumbres & Toltec should relocate to Aspen.

Folks who got it right: Durango & Silverton, Strasburg, New Hope.

Future excursion operations: Monterey, Palm Beach, Beverly Hills.

Discuss and debate.

Warning - rambling musing follows. Feel free to skip it.

Not an either / or, Sandy. Lots of ways to explore different markets. Lowest Common Denominator can work very well too - Wal Mart is despicable and an unpleasant place to shop, but a great sucess on the balance sheet. Target is aiming higher and doing very well, still serving the big box discounter model market but with better merchandise, customer service, and corporate citizenship. I still don't understand the Sears / K Mart thing.......or why NBC and GE make a good marriage, but it sort of seems to work for them mostly.

My favorite New Hope Valley RR is a bite sized, family friendly chunk of unpretentious southern shortline low-key fun located in the wealthiest SMSA in the Carolinas yet financially marginal and growing at a much lower rate than the surrounding communities. I'm wondering if it is because we are mostly focussed on the technical side of maintaining and operating rather than marketing, and creating a brand attractive to the SMSA. Its unrpetentiousness, rusticity and piney woods unspoiledness are of value to local families seeking a respite from suburban development plasticity - how do we get them there to find out?

I'm trying to envision a tourist railroad or railroad museum equivalent of SteinMart or Marshalls, but seems not all retail businesses strategies translate well into entertainment operations.

What can't be relied on to work is "if we build it they will come". It has been proven to accidentally work out in some places, but not usually.

Consider the difference in market share between Disney World railroad and the nearby Mt Dora based tourist railroad - whatever they are now called, Inland Lakes last I heard. Anybody bashing Disney World railroad for being inaccessable to anobody who hasn't paid a lot of $ to just get into the park? Bashing Mt Dora for not converting the town into a theme park? Perhaps some towns such as New Hope, Durango or even Georgetown are semi-residential theme parks in some ways.....and a premium isn't unreasonable or unusual under those circumstances?

The luxury / dinner train market is an interesting one when considering such things. Pizza and beer trains can do just as well as 4 course dinners. Lower expectations are less costly to provide while meeting customer perceptions of acceptable standards, but does it cost enough less than operating a first class train for which a premium can be charged to make that an unworthy difference? Hauling a ton a mile costs probably not much different, but providing better food and service........more than marginal. The balance seems the thing here.

No size fits all, and every circumstance is a custom fit ever evolving. Makes it a fascinating business.

dave

Glad to report another good day at the NH&I. #40 ran like a top, great weather ( a little nippy...guests glad for the steam heat), great crowds and got to meet another 2 Rypners.

Calling for a heavy snow storm tomorrow so we'll see what happens. Strong advance reservations which are prepaid so some will now doubt brave the storm anyway. I'm sure a foot or two of snow won't stop the steam train nor Santa and Mrs. Clauss!! After all the destination as announced before each departure is the North Pole!!!

Certainly will be interesting!!


Ross Rowland

Does the railroad have a plow?

No formal plow, we usually use one of the diesel locomotives to clear the line if needed. I am engineer tomorrow morning on the 40 hopefully we still have a good turnout with the snow.

With the current attitude towards steam specials by both NS and CSX there's no sense thinking about it without a secure use for the machine.

Why limit yourself to two railroads that are known to have risk management departments that forbid steam operations?

Isn't 614 located on a road with ITS OWN steam program? Surely, Mr. Muller might get a kick out seeing Shane or Chad at the throttle of a 4-8-4. Then again, Steamtown was able to run on CP.

There's a principle of industrial psychology that people who suspect they are unable to meet a target, purposely pick an unreachable one to have fortune or circumstance as a handy scapegoat. You know, when challenged to a public debate-you set up the strawman of requiring the attendance of people who have every reason to avoid such contentious disputations.

It would appear that the snow storm is slow in coming so I'd guess that Sunday will be the challenging day?? To Baldwin Feeder have a safe day and stay warm.

To superheater...your correct that Andy Muller is certainly open to having 614 run on his railroad. From there on your position is fataly flawed ( as you no doubt truly know ), as there's not nearly sufficient population within his primary market geography to support making a $500,000-750,000 investment in the machine even if Andy were willing to donate the track space and use of the coaches ( not likely), no matter how much marketing was done. Basic biz.101 is that unless you can earn at least your capital back then don't do it.

Thus, when we are able to create a project that as an integral part of its operating budget has sufficient funds to pay a reasonable return for 614's services then, and only then will we restore her.

For a fixed base operation you MUST have sufficient population density to make it work. One of the reasons that Steamtown and some other tourist steam operations have such paltry attendance numbers is that they're too far from too many folks!!

IMHO-Ross Rowland

Ross
Andy's Port Clinton terminal is maybe five miles from Cabela's, right on I78. Cabela's sure doesn't have trouble getting people regularly. (Including me) There might be more of a market than you think!

Snowing heavily in northeast Philly. Going to try & get up to New Hope tomorrow for steam & snow.

If there actually was a large market for mainline steam excursions on the R&N, don't ya' think Andy would run 425 more, or restore 2102?

Rob

I believe that most of what Andy runs is sold out well in advance. That would indicate to me that more excursions could be run.

To superheater...your correct that Andy Muller is certainly open to having 614 run on his railroad. From there on your position is fataly flawed ( as you no doubt truly know ), as there's not nearly sufficient population within his primary market geography to support making a $500,000-750,000 investment in the machine even if Andy were willing to donate the track space and use of the coaches ( not likely), no matter how much marketing was done. Basic biz.101 is that unless you can earn at least your capital back then don't do it.[i]

Thus, when we are able to create a project that as an integral part of its operating budget has sufficient funds to pay a reasonable return for 614's services then, and only then will we restore her.

For a fixed base operation you MUST have sufficient population density to make it work. One of the reasons that Steamtown and some other tourist steam operations have such paltry attendance numbers is that they're too far from too many folks!!

No, I offered no proposition. But your reasoning is off the mark.

Eastern Pennsylvania, whether you run from Pittston, Jim Thorpe or Port Clinton is within driving distance of a subset of the following: New York, Philadelphia, Northern New Jersey, Allentown/Bethlehem/Easton, Baltimore, and Harrisburg/York/Lancaster. If you were in those areas you'd run into the eco warriors and NIMBYs.

Population density or proximity is not the problem. The problem is that big steam is difficult to the point of being virtually impossible to operate in order to produce sustained economic viability. Its worse today than in the 1950's, because machinery and technique are gone-absent a few places.

That brings me to my ultimate point. Having spent years positing the idea in the form of a secret plan that if Steamtown were decomissioned and just turned over to a private operator, it would have a roundhouse full of operable steamers, spinning turnstyles, etc, will you know concede that's a rouse or at least not quite as simple as you portray to the "ignoracenti" of the dead tree media?

The basic reasoning behind outsourceing the operation of Steamtown into the private sector is very straight forward.
Under the NPS operation a SUBSTANTIAL piece of its annual multi-million dollar annual susidy goes to support a payroll far larger than would be the case with a private operator. In addition the NPS is severly limited by the endless rules&regs of all Federal operations as to what they're allowed to do/say etc. A private sector operator would do a much better job marketing,tailoring the operations to the publics taste etc. My proposal is to take $1 million of the current $5 million they spend and pay that as a stipend to the winning private operator and whatever the new operator can generate from the gate is theirs. This way the Feds save $ 4 million/year and the place gets a chance to blossom.
Using your rationale why is the NH&I running sold out Santa/North Pole trains 7 days/week right up to 12/23 and S'town is running nothing??? The answer is obvious....marketing and aggressive management. The staff at Steamtown gets there paycheck on time regardless of the gate. The folks at NH&I ( and all other private operators) will be out of a job if the gate stinks!!! Self preservation is what makes free market capitalism work.

The wind is blowing and the snow is swirling. I'll have to set out extra early for my 0630 call at the roundhouse tomorrow morning!!

Steve feel free to introduce yourself tomorrow if you make it.


Ross Rowland