Driving distance is not the issue with people from New York and Northern New Jersey. The rule of thumb is that if it involves crossing the Delaware river - it might as well be Oregon. I have dozens of NY friends that have been all over the world - but have never crossed the Gap. NH&I is just over the river, so it stands a chance. Steamtown? It might as well be Alaska.

--
Will

The basic reasoning behind outsourceing the operation of Steamtown into the private sector is very straight forward. Under the NPS operation a SUBSTANTIAL piece of its annual multi-million dollar annual susidy goes to support a payroll far larger than would be the case with a private operator.

Really? Show me your analysis. As there is no "private Steamtown" you have no basis to make such an assertion. Additionally, you have NO experience' in managing historical installations (or similar educational or entertainment operations that might make a useful proxy) to establish an informed judgment.

So let's examine the credibility of the witness:

614 sits quiet.

You made a lot of noise about running G5's in Canada a few years back (result: nothing) and we can read the following from yellowribbonexpress.com

We are currently spending all of our energies constructing the full Program, Plan and Schedule (Business Plan) and Sponsor Acquisition Plan preparatory to seeking our five co-sponsors. We envision completing this phase by December 31, 2009. Then it will be hitting the road in search of our 5 partners. We hope to have that done by September 1, 2010.

I suggest a new name: vapor train.

You don't have the vaguest idea how many people it takes to secure, maintain and operate a 60 plus acre federal installation. The entire argument is ridiculous without a decommissioning and in case you haven't noticed, the lawless kleptocrats you supported are in the business of taking over things, not cutting them loose and using financial types as whipping boys. Seriously, I can't wait to see you testifying before the house or senate committee.

Moreover, a private operator would never have the benefit of the donation of TENS OF THOUSANDS of volunteer hours annually.

Three cheers for New Hope, in my mind, if they succeed, we all succeed. However, your vitriolic screeds would have more credibility if you were actively involved in NH's management and not just blowing into town once in a while.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, as am I and part of my opinion is that your opinion is uniformed (at best).

Well it's 0439 and still snowing lightly. Apperars we got about 14 inches here so should be able to make it to the roundhouse in my 4 wheel drive P/U ???

Heavy reservations for todays trains ( all prepaid and non-refundable) so hope they get the roads in good shape quickly as many will try to get there.

Got to make sure the sand dome is full and the sanders are in good working order as we'll need them to get up the hill especially on the first trip!! # 40 is a good puller but not without good sand!!

Should make a pretty picture today!! Hope to see some of you trackside!!

Have a safe day!! Ross Rowland

Funny, this hypothesis doesn't seem to wash true regarding the Friends of the EBT.

Though I keep arguing that more volunteers would come out of the proverbial "woodwork" if the property were in public, rather than private, hands, AND a continuing generous and congenial relationship were maintained with the FEBT (i.e. no interference with FEBT projects, as opposed to mandating government bidding processes, minority set-asides, prevailing-wage mandates, etc.).

Sadly, I'm guessing we'll never find out.

Could be, I don't have any data on it. Andy has proven to be a smart businessman, so lets watch and see. He has said the T-1 would be restored if there were a) funding sources and b) a market to support it. I have to think that if there was a golden goose awaiting in Port Clinton, he would have capitalized on it. The original BM&RDG is literally across the river from Cabella's. And he's using it for car storage, not tourist trains, so I wonder...

Of course, there is steam very close to Cabella's on a very regular basis, on the Wanamaker, Kempton & Southern. More than once I have made a day of Cabella's, Roadside America and the WK&S. Now you can add the Reading Company museum to the list.

If the Cabella's in East Rutherford, NJ ever gets finished, the Hamburg location will probably not be such a draw for those in Joisey and New York.

Rob

Snowed in under 23" & they never plow the side streets here. Steam running on NH&I during the week?

"Funny, this hypothesis doesn't seem to wash true regarding the Friends of the EBT."


Unless I'm mistaken, Ross is discussing a regular business operator. FEBT is a tax-exempt organization. Moreover, as much as I love the place, every fall we invariably have a thread here about whether they will be back "next year" and fret about what happens when No. 15 has a major mechanical issue.

If however, Ross's concept of "private" includes a 501(c)(3), then we have proof that "private" operation doesn't ipso facto provide for guaranteed sustainability,much less vitality. In fact, we can see that the people that Ross wants to eliminate would mean that much of the time the complex would be closed to the public, the way Orbisonia is closed. (a statement of fact,not a knock)

The great irony is that for years, people insisted that the only way EBT could be assured of continued existence was to obtain NPS or PHMC patronage-with the argument being apparently settled by Ed Rendell and his indicted Revenue Secretary with the vivisection of PHMC and Ross's guy spending trillions to prop up failing private business on Wall Street and in Detroit. Its sort of laughable to worry about Steamtown given TARP, Stimulus & "cash for clunkers". Oh wait, here comes stimulus 2.

Also, the corollary isn't perfect, because EBT is insular and rural. Steamtown operates on a regular freight railroad and that brings up risk management issues FEBT doesn't face.

The simple fact is Ross is implicitly fixated on the idea that the proper role for Steamtown is to focus on long, big power excursions; I suspect because its amost impossible to run them privately as was done in the past and there's no greater disappointment than the failure of the last great hope, even when your "hope" is based on misunderstanding.

However,that never was Steamtown's mandate. (He also conveniently forgets that in its early days, Steamtown was the subject of Bruce Vento's petty obsession that Joe McDade did an end run around Vento's committee). See the following 1991 GAO testimony:

http://archive.gao.gov/t2pbat7/145163.pdf

See the management goals on page 2: providing a ride is just ONE of those goals.

On page 8, you'll note that then Superintendent Latschar considered the possibility of excursions beyond Moscow as "remote", so in fact that are now REGULAR,but infrequent excursions can be considered as having exceeded early expectations.

My objection to Ross's incessant diatribes is simple: he makes assertions he cannot substantiate and ignores the realities of economics and legislative mandate. He isn't part of Steamtown and unable to use the facility as parking lot for 614, he hammers away to any naive reporter without the slightest journalistic skepticism to ask, "hey what's this guy's beef?" Ross is an "expert" on Steamtown, the way Jack Klugman was expert enough to provide Congressional testimony on "orphan drugs" by virtue of having done an episode of Quincy on Toret's Syndrome.

He has no relevant management or preservation experience, no examinable plan, just a relentless disdain for the efforts of people he viscerally considers unnnecessary. He would abandon integral parts of Steamtown to focus on his private fantasy.

Beyond being unqualified on the rules, he doesn't know the territory.

Unlike Ross, I've spent many years dealing with visitors, so I understand their interests-which generally don't include hero worship of some legend of an invisible kingdom wearing an oversized hat (the inherent freudian slip there has been missed but is fascinating).

As an enthusiast, I love the all-day excursion. Visitors want something else. They want to see the "roundtable", to know what that "little stack" behind the smokestack is and yes, sometimes to ask "how do you steer it", or "how do you start it". They want to get in the cab (for about three minutes in July, and three hours in November). They have children that have 15 minute attentions spans and who fuss on the latter part of the half-hour ride to the Radisson.

I would in fact argue that TRUE private operation is impossible, as that would've involved having site development and hazmat mitigation paid for by investors. Actually, what Ross wants is "TARP for Trains".

Yes Steve, steam is running ON SCHEDULE on the NH&I. Had a bit of a struggle getting to the roundhouse this morning but everyone did show up and got the place plowed/shoveled out in time.#40 didn't want to come out of the house account drifts of 3.5-5.0 feet just outside the door. Had to do several back and fros to get enough momentum but finally she was out and free!!

Trains very loaded as a good number who couldn't make it yesterday came today. I worked first shift and I'm told that the 3:30, 5:15 and 6:45 will be SRO.

#40 ran like a top and we stayed right on schedule for the first 3 trains.

Too tired to respond to Superheaters screed, perhaps in the morning before reporting for an 0800 call?? Got to meet 3 more Rypners and it was a pleasure!!

Even with all the difficulties that winter running presents there's something magical about steam in the snow!!!

Steve, we're running daily through Wed. 12/23. See the www.newhoperailroad.com site for schedules. I'm first trick engineer Monday and Wed. Hope to see you.

Off for a good hot meal with my patient wifee!!

Be safe, Ross Rowland

Superheater,

We all get your points, if you have a personal dispute with Ross PEASE take it offline!

Thanks,

Scott

My prior comment re: FEBT/EBT/etc. regarded ONLY the fact that volunteers will come out and voluntarily assist a worthy cause even if the administration/landlord is not the NPS or similar government agency.

Another example: volunteer docents at the B&O Museum, volunteer operators/restorers/etc. at the Baltimore Streetcar Museum, etc. There is hardly anything unique about volunteership at Steamtown..........

There is hardly anything unique about volunteership at Steamtown.....

Operating on somebody else's road, is just for starters.

I've only been to New Hope recently on charter operations. I refuse to pay the parking fee if I'm going by myself, as it more than doubles the cost of the ride. Now, were they to comp parking if one purchased a train ticket, I'd ride more often.

I may just park in Lambertville next time, or ride a round trip from Lahaska.

Proof is right there. If anyone is taking a second thought to purchasing a ticket to ride because of your extremely high ancilliary prices, you are losing out. You call that good business?

I am sure all the Santa trains ran full. NH&I has strongarmed their customers into riding the trains because they have a non refundable system that basically screws people out of $200 worth of tickets (avg. family of 4) if they don't show up.

Now, outside of Santa and the Fall Foliage Warminster trains (which are properly priced), find me a full train running up there on a regular Sunday. It's rare! You can't still tell me they are making money on their services, hence the "catch up" time for revenue via Santa.

And again, if you claim this is such a good business practice, are you then saying SRR is bad at operating business with their fares at nearly HALF (or less) NH&I's?

Like I said earlier, big banks and insurance co's made money, they did it underhanded, greedily, they paid out big time bonuses to their execs (which New Hope Pays damn near min wage to most of its workers, especially with COL in Bucks County) and things caught up with them. Their "good business skills" led to their problems. For NH&I, the time will come, the cards will fall and what will be left?

McHugh did the same thing with the RR, he sucked every dollar he could out of it, let the non profit run the Passenger trains with volunteers, often using their own money to just get the basic necessities, paying rental fees to McHugh, but with him doing little maintenance to the property, we saw what happened. Sure, things are a little better now. 40 had vitrually ZILCH in the way of running time prior to 1991 and the crews have done a great job keeping it running ever since, I give them that credit. Coaches look better, again, credit where due. But all the glitz and glam will do no good if you don't have butts in those seats to pay the bills, outside Christmas and Fall.

History repeats itself, it may not be exact, but it does repeat.

And for the record, in 1991, the reopened NH&I hauled in a little over 6 months, more than 100,000 people. Routine, daily trains left full, or damn near. Their fares were about $1.25 higher than the average Tourist RR back then, not too bad though. I am doubtful that they are close to that ridership number now.

Ridership numbers equal revenue. That is plain and Simple.

I think Scotts right. We've rehashed the whole Steamtown thing enough. superheater is within his rights to defend the indefensible and I'm within mine to hope and dream that someday the huge public investment in the place will be fully put to work. The realistic chances of it ever being outsourced into the private sector is near zero as once in the Federal fly trap there's no escape!!

Back to the topic it looks like we'll be blessed with 3 beautiful days for our Santa trains and I look forward to meeting more of you. I'm first trick engineer today (12/21) and Wed. (12/23) and looking forward to more of the magic of steam in the snow!!

Merry Christmas, Ross Rowland

Hello,

Allow me to also bolster Scott's comment. Lets be aware of the season and chill out a bit. The last I checked, Mr. Rowland is not getting any younger, neither am I or the rest of you. One thing I do know, in getting older, much of my own ranting has been a waste of time and have grown to apperciate opportunity when it comes my way. Because they may never come again.

Lets look at the bright side, Mr. Rowland has offered cab rides to those of us in this message board, a kind thing, yes? In my case, I have never had the oppertunity to take a cab ride in a steam locomotive...the closest I got was, through the invitation to overnight hostle the K4 1361 in Altoona many years ago with Mr. Leapple who also posts on this board.....again, through a kind offer. I would love to get to New Hope and take Ross up on his offer.

And Ross, you are right, despite its challenges, snow makes memories. In my younger years, the East Broad Top ran Winter Spectaculars, which I was fortunate enough to participate. In addition, at steam town, I rode the 261 charter train in the winter snow when she was visiting for the grand opening.....very cold but very memorable. And now in her case, she may not run again.

Merry Christmas and Happy New year to each of you.

Regards,

Randy