Poster "Dave" brought up what is to my mind a very interesting point in another topic:



I did not think a conversation about training and talent was appropriate for a topic on new boiler Code so I've started a new conversation to address the current trends in recruiting, training, retaining and continued education of firemen and engineers in steam service. Is there a need for a National standard for training?

If you are currently employed or volunteer as a fireman or engineer in steam service, how did you come to having that job? How were you trained? Do you think your job can be done by anybody with the right amount of training or do candidates need to have a certain skill set before they should even be considered?

If you are an employer or volunteer coordinator, how do you choose who becomes a fireman or engineer? What are your training protocols?

I do have my own experience to draw from, but I would rather start with questions before giving my opinion. Thank you in advance for your participation.

Regards,

S.O.

I can't put my hand (or mouse) on the numbers at this moment but the National Board of Boiler and Pressure Vessel Inspectors keeps track of boiler accidents. We are talking about stationary boilers but I think the numbers would be similar for most any machinery. There are a very small number of accidents that can be tracked to poor construction or faulty materials but almost all accidents are account of either operator error or insufficient training.

As to the extremely small percent of accidents caused by faulty materials or construction. I would venture to say someone with enough training and experience would even be able to catch warning signs and prevent accidents in all but the most sudden and catastrophic failures.

I have made my living for the last 10 years teaching boiler operation, maintenance, and safety (and over 25 years of boiler experience). By no means am I trying to drum up any new work, I have enough to do already. However, if anyone wanted help with designing or implementing training on the boiler part of your operation I would be happy to help.

Stan's query leads to another point which has been hashed and rehashed. How do we get young people involved in the steam avocation? At age 48, I am the youngest active member of our steam restoration team, and would love the opportunity to bring in some younger individuals. I was lucky that there were some very patient fellows willing to show me the ropes when I was in my late teens. I know some operations welcome youngsters, and in our case, there isn't too much to "reward" them with, short of some throttle time and a hearty pat on the back.

There are several qualified operating crew under the age of 25 at the New Hope & Ivyland. All potential fireman start as students on the regular steam excursions. Given the nature of the operation, with 6 - 7 trains run to Lahaska per day, the repetition permits much to be learned and practiced in a limited amount of time.

I feel any able-bodied individual, man or woman, has the potential to become a qualified fireman. The difference is measured by length of time as a student. This could be as little as one month or as long as a couple seasons; depending on the student. It is amazing how much one can learn in 10-15 operating days, especially if done consecutively.

The final evaluation includes written and oral testing. The oral testing is a Q&A session lasting several minutes between the student and the General Foreman or the Manger of Passenger Operations. This is where many "steam" questions are asked. There is no multiple choice out on the road!

There is also an hours of service requirement, to move between the three licenses, S L & T, but I forget that figure at this time.

Although steam railroading is not my normal line of work, I have put together along with others in this industry, a curriculum that I now use to train our engine crews. There are some differences between stationary, traction and locomotive boiler operations that we are all aware of. As I see it, there is a need for training the next generation for steam locomotive service and that is what our manual and classroom course is attempting to cover.

I know that there are several stationary steam and/or locomotive steam schools such as Roots of Motive Power, Midwest Threshers Steam Traction School, and University of Rollag (Minn.) College of Steam Traction Engineering, the latter upon completion of their weekend course gives each attendee a "license" to be a steam engineer, while others hand out certificates. Having worked with a few of these people who spent money to attend these schools, airfare, lodging etc. they still come away with limited knowledge ie: boilers, automatic air, firing, and many other items related to a steam locomotive but they have a "CERTIFICATE" or "LICENSE"!

As I see it, many engineer for a day programs cover a few details, and then sit you in the right hand seat box. I have come across these people who have gone to EFD and then want a job at their local tourist line or museum when they get home, but won't take the time to learn the left hand seat box first let alone the safety and operational requirements. I see the Cumbres & Toltec is making their program a little more involved. I applaud their effort to give back much needed knowledge in the care and feeding of these locomotives.

A few of us have thrown around the idea of a "West Coast" steam school whereby a limited number of participants come for an extended session to our private railroad and they are trained in all aspects so as when they leave the course, they are hopefully ready for an entry level position in the tourist railroad industry.

In my years of working with steam, you still have some people that really are not capable or grasp the concepts or respect for steam and we just have to be up front with them. I am working with one right now who cannot qualify on our railroad due to a medical issue, but firmly believes that they should be allowed to. I won't go into details, but the person is unsafe, period.

So is there enough interest to get serious about a regional or even national training program? Every museum and railroad has their own way of training a newbie. Most are safe, others are not. Many ego's also play into the equation and I am wondering if that is part of the problem also.

Jeff Badger
Pacific Coast Railroad

Go buy a Little Engines Live Steam engine and build a true-blu model.

I believe today there are many places that still have steam boiler vessels for heating buildings, and that is very true for the Notre Dame Campus.
I don't think there are very many educational schools on it but maybe more on the job training. Try to find you rnearest active operating museum with steam and join and learn. Could be railroad, could be steam threshers which are still around.

If you want to work on steam in Canada, you must pas a test and earn a "steam ticket", eh? Any steam, heating boiler in a commercial facility, stationary engine, boat, traction engine or locomotive. I'm pretty sure there are government qualification tests in Australia, New Zealand and the UK as well. I don't know about the EU or any Asian venue. We Yanks have had the private sector handle its own training and qualification traditionally, each entity as it sees fit, leaving skills sets all over the place, with no reliable standard.

Engineer for a day implies working safely in a limited setting under direct supervision. Can be a first step in addicting a person to steam if we make it interesting.

I'm not suggesting anything other than a wide ranging and basic set of skills and principles relating to boiler design, safety, and inspection and operation be required for a basic 'hostelers" qualification, that if done to a national standard, would allow for some crossover in staff and basis for starting. Growing into a fireman and engineer would require a more robust skills set, and probably somnething pretty universal could be developed with a supplement for each seperate operator to customize for specific conditions.

Maintenance - well, there's a huge variety of ways and means, but I think there are still some universals we can deal with for a basic qualification.

In the "Old Days" boomers were valued for their breadth of knowledge about how to get things done under a variety of conditions. We don't want to get too narrow and lose that perspective.

dave

The last I knew, the State of New Jersey still had a licensing program for locomotive boiler operators not covered under Federal jurisdiction. I know of several people who obtained their "ticket" while volunteering at the New Jersey Museum of Transportation (i.e. Pine Creek RR) at Allaire State Park. From what I understand, there are requirements for documented time while on the steam locomotive and a rather comprehensive examination, usually taken in Trenton. There are various "colors" or steps to the license program. I believe the steps or Seals are black, red, blue and gold, with gold being the highest form of license available. I also understand that the stationary licenses operate the same way except the exam is specific to stationary service whereas the locomotive exam covers injectors, throttle valves, and other appliances in a way that they pertain to locomotives, along with boiler chemistry, firetubes, staybolts, erosion, thermal stresses,etc. There have been several volunteers who moved into stationary licensure after obtaining their locomotive license.

Perhaps this might be a model to emulate?

Rob

As Mike Muldowney says above the NH&I has an excellent multi step program for teaching folks the ropes of becoming a qualified steam locomotive fireman/firewoman-engineer.

I have observed its success over the last 15 years when it has educated a good number of "newbies" into becoming accomplished steam crew persons.

Seems to me that the key ingredients are a combination of sufficient classroom instruction with lots of apprenticeship training on the road. IMHO learning steam is something that really takes a LOT of OJT!!

Ross Rowland

At the Maine Narrow Gauge Railroad and Museum you are generally supposed to qualify as a diesel engineer and conductor before entering the steam program. This ensures you know the railroad and operations and can just concentrate on steam without worrying about where to blow the whistle or what a hand signal means.

To become a steam engineer you need to get a Maine High Pressure Boiler Operators License. This is an internal requirement and is not required under state law. I just completed a course at a local community college that served as a substitute for 3 months of service time to sit for the exam. It was good course but much of it is irrelevant. I kept laughing to myself learning about automated water level controls, burner controls, air pollution sensors and controls, etc. The control system for a steam locomotive is the fireman, supervised by the engineer. Water low - open injector. Need more steam - throw in more coal. Too much smoke - back off on the coal. Pressure going up, safety starting to chatter - add water or ask engineer to use more steam. And keep looking ahead and ringing bell for crossings.

The railroad steam training program is essentially on-the-job - watch, learn, do. You work with a variety of engineers and ultimately the steam program manager is satisfied you can safely operate. All the operators are also involved with maintenance which is a tremendous learning opportunity. Part of what we do is preserve, interpret, and pass on to future generations certain skills that are extinct in the general population.

The American Society of Power Engineers has a testing/certification program for locomotive engineers and fireman. http://www.asope.org/index.html I have never heard of or from anyone who has been through the ASOPE process.

If someone of college age wants to spend a Summer or two working on steam locomotives, and get paid for it, they could try getting a job on the railroad at Cedar Point Amusement Park. Not exactly prototypical mainline, or even branch line operating, but it is coal-fired, hauls passengers, and you will learn to deal with trying to maintain operations under time-pressure and mechanical problems. Plus, the "social life" aspects of living at the park have their own benefits.

Hi All,

The real issue is how do we pick up the level of safety at all levels in the entire industry? Safety is not just a hassle or politically correct statement; it begins long before anyone gets near an operating locomotive. Safety should influence how you approach all of your activities because it becomes a state of mind. If you look at the safety program “Zero and Beyond” it relates as much home activities as it does work activities because it recognizes that one influences the other.

I want to reflect on items I have found since 2000. Let me start with a couple of examples. A tourist railroad, staffed by both volunteers and paid individuals, had a policy of not allowing people to get on or off moving equipment. Yet this very policy was regularly violated by the paid mechanical staff within site of both the railroad management and the volunteers. The management not only ignored this but instead actually encouraged other safety violations including the use of excessive speed both in the yard and on occupied passenger trains. To make matters worse at one point the rule book used allowed trains to leave the yard without all of the air brakes operating. A couple of years latter an individual asked if it was really necessary to have all of the brakes operating before you left your initial terminal.

Part 240 of CFR 49 almost assumes that you are going to be promoting from within or hiring someone with previous experience somewhere. You are supposed to consider their safety record in making decisions about promotion. In one case I know of the engineer certification program was written by a consultant and few on the property understood what was really required of the railroad in their 240 program. Unfortunately I could go on about issues at various railroads and the sad thing is it was some of our “experts” are the ones allowing this stuff to happen. And remember this stuff has happened since the Gettysburg accident and the head on collision on the Nevada Northern involving a volunteer staffed train operating with authority and an escaped car from a paid short line railroad that did not do things safely .

I and others can create a “shock wave” of stories that would close several insurance companies. But instead of seeing the next accident and allowing it to happen how do we encourage ourselves to pick up the ball and prevent it? We all make mistakes and I have certainly made mine over the years and have paid for them. But mistakes and willful violations are two different things. How do we overcome mistakes and eliminate from authority the people who are willing to push the envelope to the point of willful violations? In the end the question to me is how do we change our industry so safety is the first priority and not just running trains?

Respectfully,
Robby Peartree

Robby makes a good point, how do the steam locomotive using companies develop, implement, enforce and maintain their safety policies?

Going back to my original question, how does an employer or volunteer coordinator determine if an individual is suited for engine service? Being a steam locomotive engineer or fireman requires certain knowledge gained from classes, books and on the job training, but real success in these disciplines requires a certain amount of natural talent. A bad engineer can make the job of the best fireman miserable and vice versa. What do you look for in an engine crew candidate that assures you he can do the job while maintaining safe practices and minimizing excessive wear on the equipment?

What I had always looked for in people who want to fire or run a steam locomotive,or any locomotive for that matter,is whether they can handle multiple tasks at once..and in a hurry. The other is attitude. Cockiness and arrogance, in either management or prospective engineman are to be avoided like the plague. While working as a consultant for a steam poweed excursion line,it was my duty to write the the Part 240 qualifications,rules exam,and the operating tests for trainmen. The tests were comprehensive and covered steam locomotives,knowledge of the road, and GCOR. My employer said that the test (at 100 questions) was too long and they just wanted to have just the basics. I asked them what THEY thought would be appropriate,and asked them to remove the questions they thought were burdensome. Not surprisingly,most of the steam knowledge and GCOR questions wre removed,leaving a 20 question test! Their game plan was not to hire persons who had intimate knowledge of railroad and steam locomotive operations but to hire persons from amusement parks to operate their trains. Their reasoning was that they knew how to handle dealing with people and that was more important than making sure the crownsheet was covered or how to handle a #6 brake valve. Management is much more often at the biggest source of trouble,because the prospective enginman really does not know what they don't know..a bad cocktail that could lead to extreme difficulty.

There is considerable work being done in Australia to develop a national system of training and certification of Tourist and Heritage rail staff.

Australia has nationally consistent rail safety laws across the various states, all of which require rail staff to posess nationally defined competence standards.

Standards are in place for a number of roles (Driver, Fireman etc) and the national peak body is putting together a training system meeting those legal requirements.

For some information, and early discussion papers see http://www.athra.asn.au/training.htm.