Wow ADM, way to be positive. Just think if Strasburg or New Hope or Wilmington and Western or the countless other museums that run steam daily thought the way you do about this. There wouldn't be an operating steam locomotive in the country. I've got an idea for the 202, find a way to turn negativity into fuel and burn that. You'd be set to run 365 days a year for a million years with all the negativity around here anymore.

Is it really so hard for the railfan community to be supportive of others? These are the things that make me consider a new hobby.

J. T., I think you're missing Sandy's point. (although Mr. Mitchell isn't renowned here for his diplomacy......) Every operation you mentioned owns their own track. The WM 202 group does not own the track. I'm not saying that their task is is not possible, but it certainly makes things more difficult. Fund raising is hard enough for a solid project with a sound business plan and contracts or property to back it up. Selling "pie in the sky" is almost impossible. Even if they did get the locomotive operational and got permission to operate, they could be shut down at any time by the railroad's management changing their minds. To quote Jack Showalter, "If you own the tracks, the sons-of-b.....s can't throw you out".

So basically I'm to understand that every large road steam locomotive that doesn't run regularly at a museum but a few times a year on a Class 1's mainline was a wasted gamble? I'm not trying to be hostle about the issue at hand, I'm just sick of people with dreams being bashed for no real reason. Mr. Mitchell pointed out the failed attempts such as BLE 643, PRR 1361 and RDG 2100 as failed attempts but if you look at the broad scheme of things, three failed projects over 15-20 years is not a bad ratio when you look at all of the locomotives that were restored and pulled mainline trips. Not every group was meant to succeed but at least give them a chance to succeed or fail.

Those are hardly the only 3 examples. Cotton Belt 819 comes to mind. 765 spent quite a few years before they were able to do a deal to leave Ft. Wayne. The San Bernadino group was out of action for a long time, C&O 614 has nowhere to go, and SP&S 700 has been very limited. Over the last few years the action has been with smaller locomotives that can run on shortlines or tourist railroads and if necessary can move via flatcar or flatbed truck. I am happy to see that 765 has been able to get out but for a while they were only able to fire it up and move a short distance on their siding. The B&LE engine went through an overhaul and never did anything other than fire up. Before someone restores a steam locomotive today, devoting thousands of hours of labor and potentially a million or so dollars it would be nice to at least have a plan in place that allows it to operate. The fact that you restore it doesn't obligate your connecting railroad to let you run it!

Former Smithsonian curator of transportation Bill Withuhn said it best at a banquet with the Baltimore Chapter NRHS last weekend:

"A dream without a business plan is a hallucination."

For every example I rattled off, there are examples that can be cited that contradict my negativity: AT&SF 3751, MILW 261, SP 4449, SP&S 700, AT&SF 3415, TVRM 610, and others.

Please note that ONLY ONE of the examples I listed above is east of the Mississippi River.

I would love to be proven wrong. But the odds remain extremely high that just because you show up with an operable steam locomotive, the major railroads are not simply going to roll over and let you run willy-nilly over their trackage. In the Hagerstown area, there are four possible railroads--five if you run west to the Potomac Eagle/South Branch Valley, six if you go further to the Western Md. Scenic RR. Only the latter two are realistic possibilities, albeit feasible ones as well. The local ones--CSX, NS, Maryland Midland, and Winchester & Western--are NOT.

If the parties restoring 202 were to come up with a firm commitment for a ten-year lease of an operable 202 by WMSR or Potomac Eagle (or any other operation), the restoration would be extremely feasible. That, judging from previous posts here indicating that the city of Hagerstown seems keenly possessive of this loco, seems very unlikely. The first order of business would be for an established non-profit to buy the loco or lease it for 99 years for $1 or any other token amount, and that's primarily a salesmanship job.

But laying track to the former switch, steaming the 202 to a point beside the NS main, and blowing the whistle to make NS reinstall a switch is simply NOT the way to go.

Former Smithsonian curator of transportation Bill Withuhn said it best at a banquet with the Baltimore Chapter NRHS last weekend:

"A dream without a business plan is a hallucination."

Well, I guess we are ALL a bit schizo then!! Dreams have a way of becoming reality...well, with a LOT of money to boot too...

I just want to reiterate the fact that there are absolutely NO plans set in stone to operate 202. The group responsible for it's cosmetic restoration is only considering a full restoration if there is a place to run her near Hagerstown. This proposal has been made before, nut nothing has come of it so far. Please understand we do have experienced people who are willing to be involved, but, while the makings of a good restoration team are here, it all depends on whether or not there is a place to run her. Unfortunately the article in the Herald Mail a few years ago didnt help our cause at all. They contacted all the local railroads and asked when they would be letting us run 202 without even consulting us first. Needless to say the railroads were both shocked, and annoyed as evidence in the article. Right now we just keep 202 in the best condition possible for a display engine. She could be pulled out at any time for a relatively easy resto, but that is only if she has a place to run out of, or Near Hagerstown. Hope this clears some stuff up, we dont need anymore negative publicity. It seems that whenever I mention a possible restoration of 202 there's a big sigh followed by a "good luck". At least she looks better now than she has in many years. This year at the Hagerstown Railroad Museum we are concentrating on the restoration/painting of WM 1850 and 1865. Last year we painted 1885 and another C&O caboose.

-Alex Haines

A couple of thoughts from the peanut gallery.

I agree that forming a non-profit, purchasing, or leasing the locomotive, and making a business plan would be a great first step. Right not you are working on restoring something you have not agreement to run even if something did pan out for a place to run it. Once an agreement is made then maybe a plan to run her somewhere things could start to fall into place. I would love to see her run and I would gladly send in a donation to an organization with a lease and a plan. I love steam engines and without a doubt I would support her with donations and ticket purchases.

I don't think I have heard about any excursions on Maryland Midland in years and I don't know that Winchester and Western has ever hosted excursions (I'm probably wrong). The president of Winchester and Western is on record saying excursions would not fly. Forget CSX and NS unless you get pictures of a CEO doing some really bad stuff (just kidding).

The Hagerstown Roundhouse Museum has had very low profile in recent years. At one time the sponsored excursions using MARC equipment on a semi-regular basis and seemed to have ongoing equipment restorations. I was under the impression that they were interested in the 202 at one time. They seem to have retreated to an organization with a small museum and model train layout.

There are a lot of rumors about her flying around cyberspace; that she was indeed steamed once in the park, that she was hydro tested, retubed, there was fine print in the donation that wont let her leave Hagerstown for more than 24 hours, Hagerstown sold her and then got her back somehow, she was shopped just before she was retired, she was damaged in a previous restoration attempt, etc... I'm not the self appointed rumor police but I would be interested in knowing her history.

The bottom line is she has shelter and is being cared for pretty well. Even if nothing pans out right now who knows what could happen 10 or 20 years down the road. Giving her proper care now is the key to doing anything with her in the future.

Well, a tiny number of dreams have a way of becoming reality. Most end up in the sewer.

So this "planning" thing that seems to pop up every so often when we discuss bringing a locomotive back from the dead - I would actually like to see some of these plans on paper. Can someone provide a few? I mean something 1/2 inch thick (paper or virtual), with every detail, chart, fact, strategy, contingency, map, evaluation, ruling, drawing, scenario, impact, and financial - and no foam or filler.

Is there such a thing for WM 202? Or any other locomotive? Even for a boxcar? Seriously, I would like to look them over.

--
Will

Most of the "rumors" are right. Though I wouldn't say she was outshopped exactly, just that some of the good parts were put on her so she could serve as a parts department for 204, and 205 down at Port Covington being used in thaw service.

Lets just say we have NO reason to believe she wasnt fired in the early nineties, just ask the neighbors.

She was partially retubed in the eighties. We have the old ones under one of the cabooses.

The city did sell it to John Long(not a legal sale according to the contract with the WM). He donated it back to the city in his will, so one way or another Hagerstown owns it. While Mr. Long "owned" it he put alot of time and money into the engine, unfortunately alot of what was done was done wrong. Never the less, he is responsible for it being in as good a condition as it is.

It's true that according to the original contract with the WM, 202 cannot travel more than 50 miles from Hagerstown and must be back within city limits in 24 hours. That is the original contract, but since the city did honor the sale, I cant really say what is legal in that way anymore, except for the fact that the city owns it.

-Alex Haines

I rode an excursion on the original W&W from Gore to Winchester and back in the late 1980's. Somewhere I have the photos. We had an ex-Milwaukee F unit going one direction and the ex-DL&W business car that Porter Collins owned.

This thread started because a young man excited about restoring a steam locomotive made some mistakes in his post. Like most other new commers to RyPN he probably had little clue this site was different from Trainorders in the sense that there are a lot of people here with a lot of experience in this industry. What he got for his efforts was jumped on like a dead chicken during feeding time at the alligator farm. Fortunately a few tried to steer him in the right direction while others took their usual position as the resident smart ass. How many people, new and experienced, have we driven off with this negative approach?

I first read a post similar to this one on a WM site a couple of years ago. That post was from Alex. I came back to him with some of the tough questions you guys ask every time a new guy from the 202 group finds RyPN and found Alex had done some research and knew some of the answers. If he did not know something he was not afraid to ask somebody. I also was careful to tell Alex in that first message I was not trying to discourage him but some serious issues needed to be addressed. Being so young the guys in Hagerstown remind me of myself 35 years ago when I was the only volunteer doing anything to the 202.

What this group has done in the park is impressive. The 202 and other equipment in the park display looks much better than it has in many years, possibly ever. Each year they make a little more progress. They care for the 202 very carefully. Much of the core of the group is very young and still learning. They also make mistakes, mostly from lack of knowlege. On the plus side they have enlisted the help of steam people who did the usual preliminary testing and found nothing obvious preventing a relatively easy restoration to service. Frankly, I can think of a lot of organizations that would love to have a bunch of young guys who make some mistakes but have the energy and enthusiasm old farts like myself once had.

This issue reminds me of a compliment I got from my first boss on the railroad who was talking to somebody about me and my young age. My boss told the guy I was young, not stupid. Alex and the other guys in Hagerstown fall under the same catagory as do many others trying to get a start in this industry. As far as internet sites go it is my opinion that RyPN is exactly where these people should be. I hope Adam will stay here at RyPN but I could not blame him if he never looks at the site again. We were all in their position at some point in the past but we did not have the internet negativity experts to drive us off. I think we need to get our act together as an industry and do more to attract young people and I think changing the way we greet new people here at RyPN can be a small part of that change. I for one will let the moderators decide who is real and who is spam. I have difficulty enough turning my computer on and off to attempt that job. Besides, the moderators seem to be handling the job pretty well.

John Bohon

John -

Well said!

Les

John, well said. I agree wholeheartedly. We'll always catch more flies with honey than with vinegar!

Alex, I sure hope you remain a part of the RyPN community. You will learn a lot, even from the sharp, tough words from some. Use it all for your benefit and whatever you do, don't quit and don't let anyone else dictate your future. Be smart. You will gain the confidence and trust of a lot of people in life by thinking carefully about what you want to say before you say it. Sometimes it's best to let others do the talking, but remain a part of the conversation and keep learning. We look forward to hearing more of your progress this year. Become an integral part of the 202 group in Hagerstown. Please post pictures if you can. We're all like a bunch of little kids. Pictures sometimes light our fire more than anything else! Your progress can also be an inspiration for others trying to accomplish the same "impossible" Dream!

I've stopped in Hagerstown and saw the 202 from a distance. I hope to get another opportunity to do so and meet you guys in person. Keep up the good word. I won't wish you good luck, because you won't benefit from any luck, just hard work and smart planning.

Rob Gardner
American Steam Railroad Preservation, Inc.

Alex, isn't this why the ex-MARC cars were bought? I don't want to say for certain since it looks like some of what I was told was truth was just rumors.