Hi,
I'm new here and heard a rumor about a Pennsy K4 being restored. Is it anything like a T1 or an 0-6-0 I heard was in a quarry?.............

Go stand in the corner.

No, but it is something like the two Long Island Rail Road G5s ten-wheelers, both of which are in the rehabilitation process. This might be a good, no, great time to further restoration of either RMLI's #39, or OBRM's #35, by writing a check to either organization, earmarked for the steam locomotive fund. Both museums are actively seeking the money to press their programs to completion. It has become quite clear that , for the next few years at least, these two will be the only big Belpaired, PRR designed locomotive you'll see fired. Both groups are intent on having them done with a plan of action, by competent steam people.

Your spelling and grammar is too good.

Hi,
Im new heer and heard a rumer about a Pennsy K4 Being restored Is it Anything like a T1 or an 0-6-0 I heard was in a quarry?.............

The information that is mentioned on the website mentioned above, turns out to be at best an individual's opinion rather than a BOD decision.Official information will be released in the not too distant future and even Ross will like the game plan. Please be patient.

Mike Tillger

If the above post is factual( turns out it is not), should I as a Pa & USA taxpayer ask them to return every penny of my tax dollar spent on the restoration? You do not accept federal, state, and the common mans funds and quit in my book with out some form of repercussion.

Mike, you really need to understand your place. Asking questions like that draws the attention of "big sis", Cass Sunstein and the rest of the ministry of propaganda. (pausing to sip gunpowder black tea, with raspberry)

This project hit a major fiscal bump in the road when the Rendell administration decided to pull the plug on it after an audit by what used to be known as the "Public Protection and Recreation Comptrollers Office" performed a performance audit.

Ordinarily, I would approve the exceptionally rare judgment by public officials that a project isn't meeting expectations, but I have to see the audit report to see what criteria were applied to determine the merits of the project. There's a considerable amount of art in conducting a performance audit; a good deal of the value of the report relies on the audit team's familiarity with the subject. Obviously, there was likely almost no familiarity with steam locomotives by the auditors, and there is an unfortunate tendency by government bodies to determine the merits of a project based upon already expended moneys,when prior expenditures offer nothing no indication of future success. (Of course they'll keep shoveling money into the firebox when there's no evidence it isn't helping, won't help but buys votes).

In some cases the political value of appearing fiscally responsible, uncovering "waste, fraud or abuse" or portraying prior officeholders as irresponsible or incompetent overrides the elemental principal of finance of not engaging in the "sunk cost fallacy". The narrative is simple: "We spent X million, its too much".

Sunk costs are moneys already expended, but they aren't relevant to decisions of continuance-even if it they would make a project prohibitive if you could start all over again.

If you had a house worth 200K, you wouldn't spend a half a mill to restore it from the start but if you weren't paying attention and spend $490,000 and needed to $10,000 to finish the project to get a $200,000 house, as opposed to an unfinished property worth less than $190,000-the economically correct decision is to drop the 10K and finish it.

So, it doesn't matter how much money was already spent on the project, it only matters how much more will finish it and what you'll have. Obviously, as we know operating steam locomotives have a rather subjective value-they don't generate revenue and this won't be for sale even if there was a market. Given the state's fiscal situation-its unlikely that big state grants will be forthcoming. Also, the decision should be made soon-because the Obama administration is again floating the idea of reducing the charitable contribution deduction. The purpose is essentially making tax-exempts more dependent on funding from governmental sources, rather than individual contributors. Given the predilection of bureaucrats to worship at the altar of "green", should they ram this through-money will be harder to obtain.

Regardless of my thoughts and feelings on the "restoration" perpetrators, I must admit a part of me will feel better when I see 1361 at least in one piece.

well, how about the "other" K4 sitting in Dennison. That's sure to reopen another can of worms........

Is it me, or is there really only one real jerk who obviously knows a lot less about things than those whom he attacks? Roller bearings on the K4? A new boiler? Obviously knows little about the work completed and the technology of roller bearings as applied to steam locomotives. The level of sarcasm and fallaciousness by one member makes this board so unpleasant. Normally, if you have nothing nice or constructive to say, KEEP IT TO YOURSELF! That said, sometimes playground bullies need to be put in their place which involves being not so nice. Occassional sarcasm or facetiousness is ok, but nearly every post by someone who goes out of the way to slander or defame another is unnacceptable. I wish the moderators would do something about it.

Michael Brown
Suwanee, Georgia

New River 400 you make a valid point but I learned long ago that every group has its fringe elements who do very little or nothing beyond sitting on the sidelines and working hard at becoming world class Monday morning quarterbacks and unreasoned critics. Add some wanna-beism and envy to the recipe and you see the results.

Best thing you can do is ignore them. Fortunatly they're a VERY tiny minority and once you learn to ignore them..they sort of go away!! As the true old saying goes...take it from whence it came!!!

As to superheaters post...realisticly the chances of there being further State of Penn. funding for the ill fated 1361 project are VERY remote as the project now has grown a politicol stink to it that I'm sure will keep Rep.Geist and others far away.??

BUT...Mike Tillger says good news is around the corner so let's keep our fingers crossed that there's going to be a happy ending here after all!!

Ross Rowland

For the record, I was only opining on what OTHERS could/would discuss. If you will examine the various threads on those three subjects (and 1361, for that matter), I don't have much to say on those subjects compared to other people, because I've pretty well resigned myself to the inevitable fact that nothing that pleases all the critics is going to happen to those subjects in my lifetime.

This is the latest on the K-4 from a interview with the Altoona Mirror yesterday. The only thing that I can point out that is off is the number of trailers that have or are storing parts. It should read that we have moved four loads of parts to the Museum and that we expect to move four more, plus the boiler, frame and, tender. Our Executive Director is working out the details with Bob Yuill and Scott Lidsay about finishing the locomotive and developing a scoop of work to complete it. These details may take until the locomotive is back in Altoona so every part can be laid out and looked at to determine its condition.

Here is the article from the Mirror:

[color=#404040]Locomotion is still in the works for the Railroaders Memorial Museum's historic K-4 steam engine, despite recent reports to the contrary, according to the museum's executive director.
Larry Salone said that it's true the museum board recently approved a plan that calls for the K-4 to be assembled for display at the museum in Altoona. But it's not true he's given up on making the locomotive run after about $1.6 million and 13 years of promises, problems, restarts, fitful progress and frustration.
Salone doesn't intend to settle for making the K-4 a static display, or even a static display with fire in the firebox and enough steam to blow the whistle, as board member Rudy Husband suggested last week.
Instead, Salone will present a plan to the board this week that calls for the famous locomotive to be running by early next year - not necessarily fast or on the open tracks pulling excursions - but under its own steam, at least.
"If that's the case, I think that's fantastic," said Dick Charlesworth, a former board member who was dismayed about last week's news.
"Blame it on me," Salone said of the misunderstanding.
"We all want the K-4 to come back and operate," Husband said Monday. "If he has a plan to do that, I'm sure it will be welcome."
Salone has been working on the K-4 problem since he took over the museum in fall 2007, he said.
A prerequisite will be completion of the long-delayed quarter-roundhouse in the yard to house the reassembly and to shelter the locomotive after it's put back together, he said. Other prerequisites include hiring a steam locomotive expert to finish and test the boiler at his shop and to supervise the reassembly in Altoona.
The museum should have enough money.
The museum will cover the cost of the quarter roundhouse with a $2.1 million Redevelopment Assistance Capital Program grant obtained a year ago by state Rep. Rick Geist, R-Altoona, after a long battle.
It will comply with a 50-50 match by using about $2 million in match-eligible money it had previously spent above and beyond the required match for an earlier $1.6 million RACP grant. That comprised $1.4 million for museum yard work and $590,000 for the K-4.
The museum will pay for the additional work with $300,000 in unspent K-4 money, matched with museum income and donations already in hand and donation commitments.
The grant money must go for labor in Altoona and getting the locomotive running again, Salone said.
Most of the K-4 is in pieces in eight trailers in Altoona. The boiler, frame and tender remain in Steamtown, where it has been since the start of the project in 1996.
The museum hopes to begin the roundhouse construction in two or three months and complete it by early fall, Salone said.
Then it can get to work reassembling the K-4, which museum-goers can witness. The K-4 will start out chugging in the yard, going back and forth, to show it can go, he said.
"We don't want to have a debacle again," Salone said, referring to the 1988 breakdown that ended the last run of the K-4.
If the yard runs are successful, the museum can negotiate with track owners like the Everett or the Nittany & Bald Eagle railroads for permission to run an excursion, Salone said.
Norfolk Southern may be out, because it has a policy of not allowing steam locomotives run under their own power on its mainline tracks, Husband said.
There are also insurance issues, Salone said.
After it's running, experts can help the museum evaluate what additional improvements it would need to bring the K-4 up to Class I railroad standards, so it could travel fast, like it used to in its heyday, Salone said.
A static display isn't good enough, especially for younger people who never saw a steam engine run, Charlesworth said.
"When you see that thing operating - steam and smoke coming out of it, and you see it moving down the tracks," he said. "It's self-explanatory."
People were upset about last week's announcement, but it had a positive side, Salone said.
"It shows you there's still a lot of love and passion," he said[/color]

Here is a link to the article.

http://www.altoonamirror.com/page/conte ... 29033.html

Now that's one of two solutions that will finally get this project done correctly and in a timely fashion if the money is available. Neither SOC nor Strasburg come cheap, but both come with solid reputations and proven records of results - and both actually produce tangible results while they're getting paid. Having either one will restore much needed credibility to the project.

The poor results for the $ spent is a prime example of why the federal government should not be doing anything outside the originally intended scope of enumerated powers. Pennsylvania can do as it chooses, but if there were private $ involved, the project would likely have been completed by now and for less $ than has been spent. Given the current condition of the K-$, the thought of slapping it back together unfinished to be a propped up corpse is morally reprehensible.

Um... you do realize this board has a "friends or foes" feature. Go "User control panel"... "Friends & foes"... "Manage Foes"... copy/paste in the offending users' name (must be exact)... YOU won't see their messages again. This is the Internet version of "think globally, act locally".

You proposed "I don't like him, so censor him." OK. You may be acquainted with a little document called the Bill of Rights. It reflects two core American values. First, Free Speech - that you may not like what a fellow has to say, but you're going to answer it with free speech of your own, not a gag in the mouth. And second, Freedom of the Press - which belongs to them that owns presses. RyPN is a press, and they CAN censor, or apply the ideals of the first amendment as they see fit. No matter what they do, it'll affect their readership.

Back in the day, owning a press put you among the intellectual lords. But nowadays, Yahoo is giving away presses for free. So if you want to kick somebody off a forum, then start your own forum. Show us how it's done.