I would like to make a radical suggestion concerning the East Braod Top. It has been noted that every soul on this list would dearly love to see the East Broad Top protected, preserved, and indeed as much as plausible restored.

Given that the EBT is a nationaly recognized treasure,

The current ownership of the line has demonstrated an interest in preservation and protection,

(By keeping the line open, and allowing the Friends of the East Broad Top to continue opperations over the line,)

That there are numerous individuals willing to build "sweat equity" in the property, for themselves, or any conscientious owner,

The government of Pennsylvania has expressed an interest in helping to preserve the line, if certain conditions are met

The ownership of the line has demonstrated a willingness to allow other responsible corporations to opperate the line, if certain conditions are met

It follows that an agreement can potentially be reached by some means to preserve the line as an opperating portion of our national herritage.

Rational discussion, and honest debate are needed to reach a sound agreement that will adress all concerns of all parties pursuant to the preservation of the line.

An open forum where all voices can be heard, and are part of the public record, and where a neutral third party can help arbitrate to promote better understanding for all involved, would provide a usefull tool in reaching an agreement.

I would like to recomend that we invite the owners of the line, (in particulair Mr. Joe Kovalchik,) the FEBT and appropriate representatives of the State of Pennsylvania to publish their concerns, and discuss their views on this or a comparable site.

Would anyone care to comment on this idea?

Towards a better future for the EBT
David Aclkerman

I think there may be some confusion here about the relationship between the EBT and the Friends of the East Broad Top.

The only organization which has ever operated the EBT is--the EBT! The present RR company is the lineal, uninterrupted, genuine corporation which has always run the line. Since 1956 the corporation has been owned by the Kovalchik family, so Mr. Kovalchick owns the line, and Stanley Hall serves as the General Manager and superintendant of operations.

The Friends of the East Broad Top is a 501C3 nonprofit devoted to the preservation and interpretation of the EBT. They lease the Robertsdale depot from the EBT and have a Museum there, and they have purchased the Robertsdale Post Office (part of the old "company square" in the coal mining town of Roberstdale) and are restoring it. The FEBT also runs tours for visitors at the Rockhill Furnace Shops with the permission of the RR company on big events like opening day or the Fall Spectacular. The company may also soon allow the FEBT to do some restoration work in the Rockhill shops this summer, which would be a fine thing indeed.

The FEBT has never leased or run the RR, however (you may be thinking of the Friends of the Cumbres and Toltec, which for two years has been the designated operator of the Cumbres & Toltec Scenic RR through a subsidiary).

As for the idea of a neutral forum, I think much of the recent news and the reaction to it has shown that this subject suffers when passions get inflamed in public discussion. The Kovalchicks in particular I'm sure do not feel the need to air their views in such a forum--they are very private people.

So, I think for now the best thing might be for everyone (me included) to pull in their horns and await developments. Sweat equity is always welcome right now at the FEBT's Robertsdale restoration projects if anyone wants to put in some labor and elbow grease on the EBT.



eledbetter@rypn.org

Radical idea? Hardly.

There's only one problem with this suggestion.

The railroad, its equipment, real estate, holdings, etc. have been, are, and will remain (for the immediate future, anyway) PRIVATE property. And despite the best efforts of politicians in Harrisburg and D.C., this is still a free country, dammit.

There is nothing that says the Kovalchik family or other principals of the company have to attend, have to listen to a word, or have to do anything we like. And despite the alleged "love" of the EBT, I highly doubt they would. (Again, I sincerely hope I can eat crow on this.) They OWN the ball, and they can (and most likely will) take their ball and go home.

As a native of the region, let me tell one and all here: NEVER underestimate the ability of a Central Pennsylvanian to hold an anti-government grudge, even at the jeopardy of property or life and limb. Observe the fact that certain occupants (perhaps 100-200) of Centralia, Pa. refused very generous government buyouts of their properties, and remained behind despite a massive mine fire burning almost underneath the town and the demolition of 90% of the town in the 1980s-1990s. The reason? Because of a bizarre quirk in the commonwealth laws, the massive coal seam beneath the town technically belonged to the occupants of Centralia, and the anti-government "conspiracy" belief among the opponents of the buyout was that the Pa. or Federal government was really after a billion dollars' worth of coal under the town, very easy to liquidate during the supposed efforts to strip the mountaintop and "extinguish the fire". (I'm citing and extrapolating from other histories of the mine fire here, not presenting my own opinions, although I have been in the town many times and studied the buyout as it happened.)

This anti-governmental streak is very likely THE reason we will never see a successful acquisition of the EBT by any quasi-governmental agency. Sadly, however, we are now beginning to see "evidence" of either hypocritical or downright duplicitous behavior from Kovalchik, if some of the allegations presented elsewhere on this Interchange are true.

I'm at a loss as to what to do at this point. If we attempt to reprimand the Kovalchiks via boycotts or other campaigns, they can simply fire up the acetylene torches. Entreaties to governmental bodies are worthless. Bill Gates offering $100 million would probably only drive the price up to $200 million.

The only possible solution I see is a private foundation (and NOT the FEBT, what with the way certain parties stir up the tempest in the teapot)stepping in with enough cash to woo the owners while at the same time promising appropriate long-term preservation. And even that probably wouldn't work.

Better get your photos and memories while you can..... <:(...

LNER4472@bcpl.net

Great post!
If I recall correctly that fire is sttill burning. Been going for awhile now. Yes, those residents sure did not want to move.

Jeff Lisowski
West Chester, Pa

Great music!
unfunkyufo76@hotmail.com

In California there are immanent domain laws that may apply in this case. Private property may be declared "immanent domain" when cities or counties attempt to bargain in good faith to acquire property from private ownership an reach an empasse. Once declared a reasonable (market) value is established. The owner is recompensed and the property changes title. THis is often done for parks, roadways and the like.

wyld@sbcglobal.net

> In California there are immanent domain laws
> that may apply in this case. Private
> property may be declared "immanent
> domain" when cities or counties attempt
> to bargain in good faith to acquire property
> from private ownership an reach an empasse.
> Once declared a reasonable (market) value is
> established. The owner is recompensed and
> the property changes title. THis is often
> done for parks, roadways and the like.

Immanent domain is tantamount to illegal confiscation of one's property. Try this, and I'd wager EBT would end up as scrap.


patteac@delanet.com

Frankly I wouldn't blame Mr. Kovalchik for not wanting the government having an interest in his property. Consider the EBT as a family farm and one gets close to why there's no interest in "selling out".

For the same reason, Bill Gates could walk up to his gate with a billion dollars and be refused--it's all principal.

So forget about simply buying your way into the EBT. If interested parties want to invest in the future of the EBT, ask what Mr. Kovalchik would think if a group (no quasi-governmental types here) were to buy a 30% share of the operations with only a couple caveats:

The minority shareholder carries first right of refusal to buy should liquidation be considered.

Mr. Kovalchik may repurchase the minority ownership, based on the appreciated value of the property.

I certainly understand that the property could be left to go to hell, but if the minortiy shareholder is going to show up on the property, respect Mr. Kovalchik's ideas on how the railroad should run, and work as hard as he, then there is a good chance of securing a promising future for the EBT for perpetuity.

Government money--and foundation money too, comes with a lot of strings and hassles that a lot of people would prefer not to deal with. If those issues are out of the way, I suspect dealings over the EBT will be much simpler (and productive) in the future.

Michael Seitz
Missoula MT

> Radical idea? Hardly.

> There's only one problem with this
> suggestion.

> The railroad, its equipment, real estate,
> holdings, etc. have been, are, and will
> remain (for the immediate future, anyway)
> PRIVATE property. And despite the best
> efforts of politicians in Harrisburg and
> D.C., this is still a free country, dammit.

> There is nothing that says the Kovalchik
> family or other principals of the company
> have to attend, have to listen to a word, or
> have to do anything we like. And despite the
> alleged "love" of the EBT, I
> highly doubt they would. (Again, I sincerely
> hope I can eat crow on this.) They OWN the
> ball, and they can (and most likely will)
> take their ball and go home......"

> "This anti-governmental streak is very likely
> THE reason we will never see a successful
> acquisition of the EBT by any
> quasi-governmental agency. Sadly, however,
> we are now beginning to see
> "evidence" of either hypocritical
> or downright duplicitous behavior from
> Kovalchik, if some of the allegations
> presented elsewhere on this Interchange are
> true.



mikefrommontana@juno.com

I would rather see the EBT scrapped than to have the government exercise eminent domain to acquire the EBT. Private property rights is a founding principle of this country, and cannot be simply dismissed because it happens to conflict with what a few preservationists want.

I find no fault in the State of Pennsylvania trying to purchase the railroad, but would not agree with spending any Federal money, either directly or indirectly, to purchase or restore the EBT. Please show me where in the Constitution where saving railroads is an enumerated function of the Federal government.

How about relying less on the government and finding a private sector solution to the problem.

The Tod Engine
todengine@woh.rr.com

>It always scares the hell out of me when somebody who hasn't taken the time to investigate the spelling of something like eminent domain is willing to use at the drop of a hat. ED should only be applied when the propert will be converted, such as when a house becomes a road. Otherwise its government sanctioned theft.

First of all ED is a common law doctrine that has been much abused in recent years.

We may not like the way things are going @ EBT but absent somebody coming up with the right $$$ to persuade the owner to sell, we shouldn't automatically resort to what amounts to a seizure.

The logical extension of that is some car enthusiasts getting PO'd about your failure to upkeep your 57 chevy as they see fit and petitioning the court for a writ so they can seize the car without anting up what you want "quid pro quo"

Remember, we have a constitution to protect us from the mob rule of popular whim. The 5th amendment provides for "just compensation"-what is just compensation for a unique property? I have an MBA and I can't think of how I could establish fair market value save anting up the price they want!

I want to see this saved, but not at the price of another erosion of our contitutional.

I always thought it was spelled this way, too. Sorry, bad grammar is bad enough, but bad ideas are worse. Why don't people just sell the 'farm' and move to Florida where the train geeks won't bother them.

SBS5CATS@KC.RR.COM

> (I'm
> citing and extrapolating from other
> histories of the mine fire here, not
> presenting my own opinions, although I have
> been in the town many times and studied the
> buyout as it happened.)

Alexander,

where in PA are you located? I grew up in Shenandoah, a few scant miles from Centralia.

mrwowak@yahoo.com

When I was a freshman at Penn State, the current owners opened and ran the EBT for what then was thought to be one or two seasons. It is still in operation and the owner's have every right to run it or not run it as they please. Would you want someone to tell you what to do with property that you paid for in cold, hard, after tax dollars?

The EBT is really the crown jewel of Pennsylvania railroading heritage and the heritage of the coal industry in Southern Pennsylvania. We should be thankful that the owner's recognized and still recognize the significance of that THEY bought and have allowed all of use to enjoy it.

Sandy is right, Pennsylvanians (outside of Philadelphia) are a rather independent bruch of people and rightfully look at government intrusion into their property rights with great fear. Remember it is in this region of the State that during the revolutionary period that we fostered the "Whiskey" rebellion.

Let the owner's of the property have the "quiet enjoyment" of what they own.If they do not want to deal with the government, So be it! They still allow the railroad to run and allow us all to enjoy it.

It is almost like having the government tell me what color and road name to paint the E units.

We have allowed too much control of our property to fall into the hands of mis-guided "do gooders" with their mono-focused so-called historic preservation and architectural review boards that intrude into every facet of ownership of private property when they think it serves their perceived needs.

The people in NH have it right: "Live Free or Die".

The K family has given all of us something very special. We should say, "Thank You".

The Friends have hightened the awareness of this treasure on a broad basis and we should say "Thank You"

If the government wants to contribute without exercising control just fine. But there is nothing wrong with what the private owners of private property are going, and surely we are non-the worse for their efforts!



v-scarpitti@worldnet.att.net

> Sandy is right, Pennsylvanians (outside of
> Philadelphia) are a rather independent bruch
> of people and rightfully look at government
> intrusion into their property rights with
> great fear.

Could you explain the Philly thing a tad more. I'm technically outside of Philly, but since I'm close enough, I don't find your comment to make sense. I do agree with you however on the whole PA deal, but Philly people are very independent.

Remember, my blessed United States Marine Corps. was started here. Tun Tavern 1775! Now that's independent.

Jeff Lisowski
West Chester, Pa

Great music!
unfunkyufo76@hotmail.com

> Could you explain the Philly thing a tad
> more. I'm technically outside of Philly, but
> since I'm close enough, I don't find your
> comment to make sense. I do agree with you
> however on the whole PA deal, but Philly
> people are very independent.

> Remember, my blessed United States Marine
> Corps. was started here. Tun Tavern 1775!
> Now that's independent.

> Jeff Lisowski
> West Chester, Pa

I responded off list. My perspective is colored by my first hand experience.

BTW, The beloved USMC also left Philly, never to return. We lost their presence at the Navy Yard, at the Marine Barracks at Broad and Washington, and anywhere else in the City except at the local recruiting sta.

v-scarpitti@worldnet.att.net

I've asked this before, but never got an answer. Ten years or so ago, there was an eminent domain case down south somewhere, involving an elderly lady who lived on a main street, with a huge, ancient (but apparently healthy) tree in front of her house. She made plans to cut it down, but townspeople went to court to stop the destruction, and apparently won. I never heard the final outcome, but this might have some bearing on using eminent domain to prevent the destruction of historic properties. Anyone else familiar with the case?

A few years ago in Vermont a man died, with his will stating that his horse was to be destroyed upon his death. Animal activists went to court and spared the horse's life, with much public support. He also had two Cadillac convertibles stored, which were to be crushed upon his death. Never heard how they fared.

Personally, I think the EBT case is a long way from any sort of eminent domain solution, but I do believe that owners of historic properties have a responsibility to society to be good stewards of them, and when necessary, would support eminent domain when needed so save them.



ryarger@rypn.org