The previous attempt to restore the 470 is well documented on this forum:
http://server.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=10520
http://server.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=10743
http://server.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=10808
http://server.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=21855

Herr Swanson, I'm speaking from nearly ten years of expeience working on a 4-8-4 actually. It took maybe 5 or 6 years of dealing with a munical government before we could even get PERMISSION to enter the site where our engine sits, due to various insurance issues, nevermind mind securcing the funding that we now have, and have been making use of the past three years to restore CNR 6167 in Guelph Ontario.

Truthfully, even in the period of time BEFORE we got permission, certain members of the group entered the site without permission to wor kon the engine, in an attempt to paint the engine. However, when the city found out, they changed the locks on the engine.

The issue I mentioned is a real issue that exists with our engine: Built in March 1940 it served in Easten Canada until September 1956 when it was transfered to western Canada for a few months, then Northern Ontario, before settling in Southern Ontario where it served in freight service, then spent its last years (1960-1964) pulling excursion trips. While in regular service, there is little evidence of it passing through the City of Guelph, and likewise in Excursion service the engine ran all over the place, so it has as much connection to Guelph as it does to anyother city. It really belongs in Eastern Canada.

Over the years, people have expressed interest in moving it out of the city, but this idea has always been rejected, due in part to the reason I mentioned, its just been sitting there for so damn long, people became sentimental over it.

Bet you didn't see that one coming, Herr Swanson

Intersting how this isn't the first time 6167 and 470 have been mentioned in the same conversation.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=10520

It's clearly in rough condition, but as mentioned, I definitely saw locomotives in worse condition. I'm surprised there is no fence around it, or roof over it. 'Tis a shame.

SP 2-10-2 No. 975 when it was in Beaumont, TX (now at the IRM); KCS 0-8-0 No. 253 (now in Florida); and the former Panama RR 2-6-0 mentioned before in Shreveport looked far worst than this. All three had a nearly uniform layer of rust on them, with no markings visible at all on 975 -- they had all disappeared; many sheet metal parts with holes rusted clean through, and several parts missing. Engine 975 was first moved to the railyard in Beaumont, where it sat for several months waiting to be moved to the IRM. IRM then did what anyone could have done before that time -- painted the entire engine black with spray cans of Rustoleum black; the cans were piled next to the engine after they were finished. They then stenciled the numbers and IRM on the cab; the finished quick-and-dirty job made a big difference.

I remember playing on T&NO 2-8-0 No. 895 in Baytown in the early 1970s while we were passing through on vacation, and stopped in the park to cook breakfast. There were holes rusted through the boiler jacketing, revealing asbestos underneath; to my young eyes, it looked like a mortally wounded monster. I returned later in the 1990s to find it freshly abated of asbestos and jacketing, repainted and lettered, and now adorned with a plaque and a fence around it (but still no covering.)

Hopefully better times are in store for 470 sometime in the future, and before it gets as bad as the engines mentioned above.

Minneapolis & St. Louis 457 in Mason City, Iowa was another classic example of a park display engine that looked far worse than the 470 does now. In fact, when I wrote the original text for the Lost Engines of Roanoke website and mentioned I had seen park engines looking worse, that was the one that came most immediately to mind. She received a very thorough cosmetic restoration a few years ago though, now she's a shining example of a park display done right. As I said on the N&W 1134 thread, these things sure do clean up nicely. There's no shortage of examples out there showing what a brighter future for the 470 could look like. Seems like it might be as good a time as any to dust off that old proposal to the city of Waterville and try to get the process going again.

Another problem that delayed the start of work on 6167, was the funding for the engine was approved several months before a municipal election, which the mayor, that had been in favour of restoring the engine lost. It would seem that the new mayor then proceeded to drag her heels with the funding, until the next election where she was voted out, and the previous mayor voted back in. Shortly afterwords, the Restoration committee got its funding.

More reasons why government should not be in the preservation business, or any business for that matter.

Richard -

I have seen photos of M&StL 2-8-0 #457, and I agree that they did a wonderful job of restoration. One other steamer from the "Louie" still exists; another Consolidation, #471. This one wasn't a park locomotive, but at a privately owned "rail museum" in Minnesota I believe. Any word on the current condition of that other M&StL 2-8-0?

Les

Les,

471 has changed very little from I photographed it back in 1998: http://www.steamlocomotive.info/vlocomo ... isplay=661
However, those trees have really grown up around it; photography is all but impossible.
The engine has faired reasonably well, but the same can't be said for the Twin Cities Lines streetcar or the wooden cars. I was on the property (with permission) in October 2008, and took a few rolls of film. If there's interest, I'll post more of the "Minnesota & Western."

Jeff Terry

What's the story behind that diesel?

It's the remains of Soo 371, mounted on a caboose frame and powered by an automobile engine. Probably what an "Alco 44-tonner" would have looked like.

Jeff Terry

Well, I think you need to consider something here. Maine is in a state of economic turmoil, and I know Waterville is no different. The city of Waterville has more important fish to fry most likely than worry about the fate of 470. That raises the question though: why hasn't the railroad enthusiast community in this area done more to preserve this engine ? It's difficult to assemble and retain volunteers for a certain purpose when people in the area have a difficult even finding a stable job-- so they in a sense I would surmise are suffering from the same problems as Waterville and Maine.

Uh...the motor car looks okay? Wow, what a travesty those series of photos depict!

To be completely fair about this, name any of the 50 U.S. states, and perhaps by extension any Canadian province, British county, etc. that wouldn't describe itself, rightly or wrongly, as being "in a state of economic turmoil." Leave aside, for now, whether said "turmoil" was self-inflicted, bad planning, over-reliance on one fiscal strategy or another, etc. They all claim to be hurting.

The brings up the question of why nothing was done about this loco during the "good times." Again, someone needs to come right out and say "the city government wont let us do a damned thing," "we can't get the dollars/volunteers needed," "They demand we carry $200 million in liability insurance to touch the loco," or whatever the story is.

Absent either a private owner of 470 that says "shut up, go away and leave me alone" or a restraining order for whatever reason against the main agitators for the restoration of 470 having contact with the city, there shouldn't be any reason for this apparent deadlock that can't be broken, one way or the other. Can't get money? Try someone who's a better fundraiser and schmoozer. City government hates you? Have someone else approach them with a firm plan in hand. Not enough people? Guilt-trip the locals--get a National Guard training program, make it a "community service" project for high-schoolers or an Eagle Scout or a prison work gang. Go to the local media with a positive spin message.

Just as the kind of wild and crazy thinking outside the box I'm used to: Waterville is not that hideously far from the WW&F. You could solicit volunteers from that big pool of bodies that shows up twice a year, and ask them for one of their days in Maine to come in and do a cosmetic restoration. One day before the main WW&F bash to do prep work, one day after for actual painting. Some folks could do grinding or patch work, others just painting. Bribe them with a cookout like the WW&F does, maybe a place to crash or pitch tents.