Now we are seeing some good input. Dissapointing to hear that Reading Northern / Blue Mountain and Reading is having problems, like the previous poster said, it looked like a perfect setup, what happened?
I do understand it's hard getting people to care about trains, yet I thought that our ranks whre growing slowly, not declining. This is why I want to do this, I want to preserve railroading and steam for future generations so that the love for trains never dies.
I maybe young, but I have more than dreams. I have opened several business over the past 10 years, and while not all have done well, I have learned alot. I'm not going to be here forever,and I'm using Peoria as an example, but I wouldn't call it a saturated area, maybe just not idea, and I may end up moving somewhere based solely on it's merrit as an idea location for a museum.
I still haven't really heard how people got their start, and raised money and found equipment.
I think the most logical idea these days would be to raise capital and buy a shortline, then implement a passenger program on it. No?

No. The only reason to buy a shortline is to profitably carry freight on it or as a part of developing industrial properties to sell, lease and serve. Railroading is railroading and part of the transportation industry, museums and tourist railroads are part of the entertainment industry. BM&R is a textbook case as to the limitations of that strategy in today's market, can't fathom why you ould want to imitate it after the fact. You need to stop looking at traditional models and evolve a new model better suited to to new world.

dave

A different model--not necessarily better, just different--would be to get a governmental body to agree to preserve the railroad line under one of several auspices--historical preservation, "rail banking" or transport corridor preservation, industrial development, etc.--and have them assume the obligations of the railroad's preservation while letting others use it. The biggest example of this I can think of would be the Lackawanna County Rail Authority, which owns the track upon which Steamtown and the D-L operate. This strategy has its pros and cons which could be debated endlessly here. I believe the Tioga Central and Wellsboro & Corning excursion operations have/had similar arrangements, and there are more scattered across the nation.

Another strategy: Leasing the rights to an existing line from a short line or major RR. The Wilmington & Western RR in Delaware leased its line from the B&O/Chessie on weekends exclusively from 1965 to 1982. I doubt such an arrangement can be reached today, but expressing an interest in a little-used line before bean-counters think about scrapping it can't hurt.

I was going to start a separate thread for this idea, but this is probably a good place to put it out there. I got the inspiration for this from a link to Richard Leonard's Fantasy Steam Page, a photoshop/mash-up of "what-if" steam locos for different railroads - like a PRR 4-8-4 or SR 4-4-4-4 T-1 Duplex.

(link:) http://www.railarchive.net/fantasysteam/index.html

Anyway, my proposal and request for input from some of the more experienced, hands-on CMO's and master steam mechanics on this forum is this:

Taking a blank sheet of paper and your vast practical experience, if you were to design a new, practical, mainline/heavy regional/well-kept tourist line excursion steam locomotive, what would it be? Wheel arrangement, valve gear, optimal weight on drivers and tractive effort, maximum overall dimensions, operating pressure, straight boiler vs. conical or wagon top, fuel source, type of feedwater heaters, etc.?

I've got to believe that some of you have mused on this topic, like at 2 am, laying on your back, swearing a blue streak, covered in grease and dirt, trying to fix some critical breakdown at an away-from-home terminal so the fans can enjoy the next day's trip without disappointment. I've heard of some of the complaints that some of you have supposedly made about the original builder's compromises/flaws in your much-admired and loved steeds. Here's a chance to design the ideal 21st Century, conventional-looking steam locomotive - not a steam-turbine, or ACE-3000 type thing - but something that anyone familiar with the Whyte classification system would recognize. Something that could run relatively trouble-free for 1472 service days at a time for it's first 20 years of life, and will have generated enough revenue in that time to pay for the needed overhaul work.

My musing on this is that it's a given we're talking about an all-welded boiler and total roller bearings on all wheels and rods, superheating, a conventional cab (vs. Canadian-style enclosed), enough horsepower to move a 15-20 car train along at 60-70 mph, but also able to economically run a trip at 30 or so mph. My guess would be a moderate sized Hudson, on a built-frame, with a trailing-truck booster, about 72" drivers, that would have a dry engine and tender shipping weight no more than a large conventional mainline diesel locomotive - like an SD70 or GE Evolution Series loco - around 200K lbs. Probably want it to be no more than 90' long and able to handle fairly tight yard curves and self-guarding frogs. Should be able to run close to 100 miles without refueling or taking water. Must have alignment control couplers and PTC capability. Ditch lights would have to be integrated so they don't look too funky. Looking into the future, it probably should be able to burn some kind of bio-based renewable fuel source, probably not coal - less for the NIMBY's to object to. So, we're probably looking at a liquid fuel system.

The goal here is to come up with something that would be desirable for events like a "Trainfest", or spending a month or so at some of the longer tourist railroads, maybe running some trips on a sympathetic regional. It should have a generic or "timeless" look to it, so whatever region or railroad it's used on could just slap temporary decal lettering on it for the time it's there and make it it's own. It should be able to be partially disassembled for movement on it's own, dedicated carriers (probably separating frame and engine from boiler and cab on separate flats, and tender on it's own car). It should be able to move on a Class I freight train with a minimum of special handling requirements, and able to be loaded and unloaded with the least amount of cranes and other special rigging possible. I realize separating the locomotive into two parts necessitates using cranes, but making it reasonably easy to move on a Class I probably requires that for height clearances, as well as keeping the center of gravity as low as possible. The shipping costs can be made up by having it on the host railroad for a month or more of trips at a time. The models for this are Flagg Coal #75 and the live steam Thomas, just on a larger scale. It would have a broader appeal than either of said locomotives, thus generating more ridership and revenue.

So, any ideas?

Proceeding within the assumption that this discussion is intended to address only steam railroading, my priorities for inclusion in a new museum would be:

To tell the story and history of the steam locomotive in manner that is readily understandable to the general public, incorporating displays that put the development of the locomotives in a "time line" context. This would ideally be demonstrated with relation to external events that affected both the railroad industry and the industrial community during the periods being interpreted.

To explain the basics of function and operation of steam locomotives in a way that makes sense to most visitors. The method of delivery could include live demonstration and interpretation, video presentations, sectioned equipment, static displays, etc., but achieving correct understanding is the goal, the teaching technique is the way of getting to the goal.

To display steam locomotives in a reasonably accurate operating context, preferably amid suitable "period" buildings, accompanied by appropriate rolling stock, and doing tasks that demonstrate their operation. Incorporate the fantrip aspect into this presentation, including cab rides, caboose rides, and operations with appropriate passenger equipment.

To present the stories and history of the people who made significant contributions to the design and development of the technology and had a lasting influence on how railroading looks and operates.

To interpret the transition from steam to diesel comprehensively, including documentation of the effects that it had on railroad operations, employment, and servicing facilities.

And present it all in a way that is attractive to families, because the financial support from railfan visitors is not going to come anywhere close to paying the bills.

PC

Well, I hate to say this, but I think the days of creating NEW railroad museums/ steam or even diesel excursion trains are over (atleast for now).

Obviously, there are folks out there that are motivated to do this stuff. I think the answer to those folks would be find a museum or tourist line and get involved. Help an exsisting museum in its operation, make it better if need be, or even help one survive! They need you.

Steam locomotives are designed for a specific narrowish range of capabilities - one size will not fit all. Many years worth of threads ago we contemplated a sort of modularly expandable new steam locomotive for avgerage tourist, scenic and museum lines that would share firebox sections, cylinders and saddles, drivers, valve gear, and could be made from 4-4-0 to 2-8-2 configurations by adding boiler courses and frame / wheels, and making the firebox section longer or shorter. Obviously, TE would remain constant unless pressure was changed or different diameter liners could be applied in the cylinder castings. None of these ideas would work on a fast mainline excursion, but damn few of them available and several locomotives with that capability are either available or could be made so, so no economic need to build new ones, and then they wouldn't do well on light rail, small clearances and tight curves.

Steam Tech fascinates us and about 23 other people who don't read this list, and few "civilians." I'd aim any concept towards a broader, human-story interest market before going low old tech. The steam geeks that rise to the surface from the larger market base can then be absorbed and converted into us. It is difficult to comprehend, but our passions tend to bore most people away from our institutions if we don't broaden our perspective for more universal appeal. Railfans can make an event for them pay - but not a constant series of ordinary operating days. If we were in the majority, we would still be running the national railway system we had in 1925, like we did in 1925.

dave

1925 - over 63,000 locomotives and more than 1,744,000 employees on the railroads.

2010 - about 24,000 locomotives and around 183,000 employees.

Another story the museum needs to tell.

PC

1925 vs. 2010 : How many total ton-miles produced, and at what rate per year ? Average speed of a railcar. How many loadings per car per year ?



I'm following along with what you're laying down.

Regards,

Jim

1925 vs. 2009 (latest full year figures):

1925 Ton-Miles: 413,800,000,000.
2009 Ton-Miles: 1,532,000,000,000.

In 2009 the railroads produced almost four times the ton miles they did in 1925, with about 4/10ths the number of locomotives and 1/10th the number of employees.

Keep in mind the 2009 Ton-Miles are down substantially from just one year ago. The 2008 statistic was 1,777,000,000,000 Ton-Miles. That is a 15% decline in just one year, the result of the sour economy. If you compare 2008 with 1925, it is about 4.3 times the number of Ton-Miles.

And the physical plant is now considerably less mileage than it was in 1925 (250K route miles in 1925, 160K in 2009).

Another story the museum needs to tell. There is so much that is fascinating about the way the railroad industry in the US developed and progressed, and so little of it gets any mention nowadays. The comparisons we have noted between 1925 and current railroading would be an excellent topic for a display, maybe as a wall chart that would take up relatively little space.

Unfortunately I don't have complete enough information on average speed of a railcar and loadings per car per year at hand to post that comparison right now. If I locate them I will post them later. Total car loadings in 1925 were 51.2 million, in 2009 they were 35.9 million.

PC

When I worked for a major Eastern Class I, they put out some figures for employees on things like that. I remember it because the average speed for a car (velocity) was something like 19-20 mph, and it struck me that John Rehor wrote in either The Berkshire Era or Nickel Plate Story that in the heyday of the Berks, the average velocity of a car on the NKP was something like 17-18 mph. So, in 50 years we gained 1-2 mph in velocity. Now granted, the NKP was a bridge road that mostly ran through traffic - fast, and basically only ran it around 500 miles from end-to-end, but still, a gain of only TWO mph in 50 years!?

Early in this thread you mentioned whether it should be Non-profit or Profit.

Just remember, non-profit status is a determination by IRS regarding how you handle your book keeping and assets, not a business model. Regardless of your status with the IRS, your bottom-line needs to be black most of the time.

Train speed comparisons on anything other than a national basis can be very misleading because there is an enormous disparity between regions of the country and between individual railroads, depending on their operating situation. Average speeds in the midwest and west are typically 4 mph higher than nationally, average speeds in the east and south are typically 3 mph lower than nationally.

Here as a matter of general information are some national figures in various years from 1920 through 1968: 1920 - 10.3 mph; 1930 - 13.8 mph; 1940 - 16.7 mph; 1950 - 16.8 mph; 1960 - 19.5 mph; 1968 - 20.4 mph

So on a national basis, average freight train speed was doubled between the 1920s and the late 1960s, but notice that a big part of that increase took place during the 1930s!

Another display panel for the museum?

PC

Another interactive experience for the museum, showing how that change affected peoples lives, by allowing visitors to experience that change themselves in compressed scale. Please, let's write no more books on the wall........why create what is already obsolete?

dave

The best way I've found to get young people interested in rail transportation's history in the past 15 years is to tell them the following:

"The railroad industry in the mid-1800s did to America what the automobile did in the 20th century and the Internet is doing right now. It changed the way you lived, where you lived, how you did business, how you connected to the outside world."

Remember that, in many cases, you're dealing with people today that can't get their heads around the concept of telephones being bolted to the wall, let alone one telegraph in town in the station. Or the only way to get from one town to another being on a form of mass transit. Or can't figure out, even today, how people can live in a rural mining town 50 miles from the nearest Wal-Mart, let alone when you brought everything home in a covered wagon or on a mule.