Well, there's that streamlined Chesapeake & Ohio passenger steam loco outdoors near Pratt & Poppleton Sts., in Baltimore. There's also a Baltimore & Ohio passenger steam loco named "George Washington" near it. Then the owner of the Railroad Museum of East Strasburg, Pa. is so in need of money that it has been trying to sell its turnpike. A couple of passenger steam locomotives from the outdoor collection could be the next attempt at a one time cash source.
[Disclaimer: I am a a local politician in Pennsylvania, and might support the idea in my next re-election campaign.]

Just to clarify, the C&O 490 and B&O 5300 (George Washington) are now located inside the North Carshop at the B&O Museum.

I think I can put the kibosh on such "wishful thinking" right now.

We've had numerous discussions on this forum in the past whereas I've pointed out that officials of the RR Museum of Pa. have told me in the past that it would take "an act of God co-signed by Allah, Buddha, and Confucius" to liberate anything from the Museum's "permanent collection" once it is officially added to the Pa. Historic & Museum Commission holdings. This has come up when the possibility of pragmatically trading rolling stock has been bandied about as a realistic proposal

The specific reason, I was told, that Pennsylvania has such Draconian measures now in place is that several/many years ago, some PHMC official or officials supposedly committed unethical, and probably illegal, acts in a conspiracy to personally profit from the deaccession of materials from the holdings of the William Penn Museum in Harrisburg, the "official state museum." Perhaps "superheater" can elaborate. As a result, not only has it become all but impossible to "liberate" a PHMC holding, but it's downright difficult to get something officially added to such collections. (As it should be.)

I admit that sitting beside me is a 17-page list of surplus materials being offered up by the PHMC for transfer to other non-profits from exhibit sites across the state (anyone need a Reading Company pencil, already sharpened? How about two railroad spikes? Seven track anchors? a yellow signal flag? a BC Hydro Rail patch?). But that stuff was never formally accepted, and no locos are on that list, unless you count the "Metal toy train set, manufactured in Japan, ca. 1960".

As someone who has run their fair share of C39-8's over the years, two words can sum them up ... pure junk. Putting those beasts on a "Luxury Train" would be comparable to a casino employing a Ford Trimotor on luxury air service for its high rollers. I hope the cars have a good ventilation system, to filter out all the exhaust smoke these GE's tend to belch out.

To confirm what the previous poster said, there's a reason why the Class 1's purged their rosters of these clunkers, even as traffic levels rose to the point that they needed to lease units to cover the trains.

What's the old saying? You can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig? Trust me, those former CR C39-8's (the only ones that had cab signals) are pigs.

I would have to agree with Alexander on this one. The industry has changed radically since many of those accomplishments, and I think the lack of a consistent track record over the last couple of decades speaks volumes. Others have been out running steam ... successfully, I might add ... while Ross keeps playing the "I'm waiting for the right opportunity to come along" hand. How is it that those other groups (SP 4449, ATSF 3751, MILW 261) have found a way to make it work in this climate, while others rest on accomplishments made 30 or more years ago?

I think that's a very valid question, and should be considered ... despite any spin that may be put on it. Those groups don't proclaim to the world that they're going to put on some big show. They just go out, do the work, and run the train when it is time.

Wasn't Amtrak leasing some "surplus" early P40's (800 series) locos to commuter agencies in recent years? Those would probably be fairly reliable if you're looking for four-cycle fuel economy.

As for back-up steam power, were not at least a couple of the 12 preserved C&O Kanawah's in various stages of restoration to operating condition (like 2716)? My guess would be that at least one of them would be a prime candidate as a back-up steam locomotive - close to operable, large enough to pull a good-sized train, and powerful enough to tackle the grades from Charlottesville to WSS. Also, not trapped in a museum. You're probably not going to persuade any of the major museums to loan-out a prized piece for a commercial venture these days.

You must have read my mind, Paul. I was about to edit my above message to bring up that very points. Amtrak has been leasing or selling surplus P40's (such as for the NJT ACES trains) to various operators, and one would think they would be the logical choice, given factors other than simple procurement cost.

I'm reminded of the words of a certain well-known photo-freight organizer, who openly admits to all of his patrons at the beginning of each charter, "I've got the best racket going in town--I get a whole bunch of people to shell out a whole lot of money, so I can go out and have a great time!"

My father said that there was a special trick to selling advertising in a special advertising section or book for something like a town centennial or bicentennial: "Hey, this is a one-time deal, and I'm not going to be back to ask you again for another fifty years!" It worked for the American Freedom Train and the Chessie Steam Special. Let's talk to CSX's successor in 2027........

Agreed, surplus Amtrak P40's would be perfect for this service -- provided that they would get overhauled first before ever pulling any luxury train. Amtrak ran their wheels off and beat the you-know-what out of them, and then subsequently parked the P40 fleet after the express business got shut down. Folks up this way don't have a very high opinion of the P40's on Metro-North/Shore Line East service, but that's only because MNR & CDOT put the units into service straight from Amtrak without putting them through an overhaul program.

What is so desirable about an Amtrak P40 is that the locomotive is very similar to a P42DC and therefore supported by GE. Yes, I know the locomotives won't win any railfan beauty contest, but who cares about that if you're pulling trains and making money. And BTW, using a passenger locomotive means that you won't have to use a HEP generator car that you would normally need with a freight locomotive.

I would wager that the P40's, even if beat up, are in far better shape than the C39-8's. As you mentioned, they already have HEP. They have cab signals. The P40's are already passenger geared, as well. There is also a parts and supply network to support them, which probably exceeds that of the C39's. Even something as simple as a cracked windshield on a C39 may take time to order and replace, versus being an off-the-shelf item at nearly any Amtrak facility that maintains P42's.

That's a big reason why NS went with F units for their office car train, rather than E's. The innards of the F's, as well as the running gear, are off-the-shelf items at nearly all of their diesel shops, and speeds up the repair of any problems encountered out on the system.

Please allow me some observations/comments.

1. As was a sure thing, even this good news has sparked the small sour band of NNN's to work overtime trying their best to find some kernel of bad in a boatload of good! It's an interesting comment on the human condition. Only 2 of them have so far chimned in, with 2 more yet to be heard from. Fret not, they'll show up soon enough!!

2.As to the C-39's. We will be putting them through an exhaustive rehab program and when done will be fully confident in their reliability. Additionally there will be 2 of them on the GBX at all times to ensure redundancy. One of them is more than capable of taking the GBX over this route at track speed. The 3rd. unit will be in cycle maintenance. As to looks, other than the E's and F's they're all butt ugly IMHO.
3. As to 614's 2 stable mates. We have just begun the vetting process and would appreciate your input. Feel free to PM me if that works best for you. To make the "short list" of candidate engines any candidate must meet the following conditions;

1. Owner(s) must want it to go on a 15 year lease to the GBX Co. on commercial terms TBD.

2. Must have been designed/built to operate at sustained speeds up to 70mph.


3. MUST have roller bearings on main drivers and preferably rollers all around.

4. Must have a minimum of 60,000 lbs. TE without booster.


Obviously having a C&O heritage would be a plus. As all 3 engines will be put through the full FRA drill cosmetic condition is of little importance.

Your suggestions are solicited and will be appreciated.

Thanks, Ross Rowland, President&CEO

Greenbrier Express Company,Inc.

Perhaps a good deal of the skepticism comes from the fact that, over the past two decades, we've heard a lot of hype from you, but with little substance. The IHE trips over NJT can be looked at differently, depending upon who you talk to. Those at NJT certainly paint a different picture than the "yay Ross" crowd does. Even if one could call that a marginal success, what have you really accomplished in the past 20 years?

-Announced IHE trips over Amtrak to Harrisburg, PA, that never materialized (they came as a surprise to Amtrak, even though you proclaimed them to be fact in your own IHE members' newsletter).

-Announced plans for a 21st Century Limited exhibit train. Never happened.

-Ran one season on Pacific Wilderness that became mired in legal trouble with Parks Canada. Press release after press release quoted you as saying the second season had strong advance reservations. Just weeks later, investors pulled the plug before the season even started.

-Announced that you were in negotiations with a museum to restore and operate 614 on excursion trains under Amtrak operating rights. Never happened.

-Announced the Yellow Ribbon Express. Well after your orginal estimates, the project is still in the "fundraising" stage, even though you claimed it would have been out running by now.

Now, you're proclaiming that you're going to run steam on a luxury train to a high end resort. Yet, you have admitted that you haven't gained approval from Amtrak or CSX to do so. The target audience of your train isn't exactly in the demographic group you're whipping into a frenzy ... which doesn't make sense. Why get railfans all excited about a train that most won't even ride? For those who can afford the $750 fare, how many are actually going to spend 7 hours on a train to get to the resort on such a limited schedule? Do you really think it's going to attract 210 people per trip? Those who can afford to drop that kind of money aren't going to care what pulls the train. So why steam? At best, I would call the projected ridership to be overly optimistic. For those of us entrenched in reality, it sounds like a lot of "pie in the sky."

So, considering we've heard much of this before, maybe a little pessimism is warranted and expected?

I do not know Ross, wouldn't recognise the man if he walked up and slugged me, BUT, at least he is trying! Perhaps he owns a steam powered printing press and his own set of 100 dollar bill offset plates, don't know, don't care. I just know that running steam in this day and age is incredibly expensive, and the government and class 1's do everything in their power to discourage the spreading of coal smoke in the air.
As a child I had my own dreams and delusions of finding that Chicago and North Western H-1 sitting covered with dust and forgotten in a warehouse that I would be the finder and possesor of. Unfortunately I am still looking at age 52. If I find the H-1, Ross, I will gladly loan it to you. Until then I am thankful for ANY news and possibilities concerning seeing that big color spread in Trains magazine of any gorgeous shiny black, fire breathing monster flying down the mainline. Even if it is an eastern steam engine. {Everone knows the best looking steamers came from the midwest}
So for now, lets keep our fingers crossed, and wish well to any venture Ross Rowland works to put together. I have a lot more hope and faith in Ross putting something together, than me ever finding that H-1. Thanks Ross, and best wishes
Dave Keiser

The vast majority of railfans don't ride. They photograph and chase the trains that other people ride.

With the out-on-Tuesday-back-on-Sunday schedule, apparently the train ride will be part of a Greenbrier Resort package. Selling 210 tickets a week might be optimistic, but isn't the resort going to have gambling? Maybe that's the angle, but the NJT casino trains haven't been doing too well at a fraction of the fare, due to the casino industry's slump. Maybe somebody thinks the recession will be over in two years . . . oh I forgot, it's over now. Silly me.

As far as using freight units goes, I think I've read that Ross has said the train will have HEP cars -- so freight units would not be a problem. However, UP's about to auction off a batch of SD40T-2's soon that would likely be much more reliable and cheaper to rebuild, maintain, and operate than C39's. (As a fan, though, there would be some attraction to shooting GE dinosaurs instead of EMDs. Could Ross be a closet diesel preservationist?)

I don't understand the need for three steam locomotives, though. If steam goes bad order before train time, run all the way with diesels. If steam goes bad on the road, there better be rescue power real close at hand. Most of the riders likely won't care what the power is, as long as they get there on the advertised, and the cost of operating one steam engine instead of three would improve the economics by a lot. New Hope & Ivyland isn't running 7-hour, high speed trips, but they make do with one steam locomotive and substitute diesels when it's down (like it is now). And they don't have four days between runs to do maintenance.

Would be nice if this came to fruition.

Walt Lankenau

Well, yet again the green-eyed monsters have come out of their holes.

Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people.

And there you have it...