Normally, I would agree, especially if I'm getting the likes of Jim Wrinn, Linn Moedinger, Bennett Levin, or Ross Rowland for a chapter banquet. Or, for that matter, Michael Ward, or Courtney Wilson (B&O Museum director), or the head of a transit agency, or....

But 90+% of NRHS programs are "slide shows" by members, the "What I shot this summer" show. Many good photographers are not necessarily good at speaking or narration, and many great brains in rail history or preservation are terrible photographers. (I remember the late Don Ball, for one, being a particularly unseasoned speaker at one banquet at which he was a guest.) As I recall, Bennett Levin put on a show for us on the restoration of his E8's largely composed of photos by his son and employees. You don't bring someone 100 or 1,000 miles to have a slide-showing bull session, unless the leader has a LOT of brains or experience to draw upon.

One time, I presented a program for a couple chapters that was nothing but audio recordings of steam railroading from around the world, with my explaining to the audience what they were hearing between tracks and elaborating on the history of how such recordings were made. It absolutely captivated many, and bored others into leaving early--which, of course, is par for just about ANY program.

If you want to save up the rotten tomatoes, I'm slated to present the program at the Baltimore NRHS meeting on July 12th: "Ghost Railroads of Central Arizona". Instead of just more photos from the ATSF Transcon, I'll be showing folks why there were railroads in central Arizona in the first place (copper), and how those railroads evolved, died, and were reborn, and where you can find rails on the top of a mountain a thousand feet above the nearest road. Baltimore Streetcar Museum, 8 PM, all are welcome, and we don't bite or charge.

But going back to the CD presentation, how do you come over to the CD and say "Uh. we ran the business meeting too long arguing about the committee reports, and have to be out of the room by 9PM, can you please cut this program short". Has somebody developed a software that knows what to eliminate from the program?

Will somebody please turn off the projector now....

PC

It seems to me that, when a presenter is invited to share his material at a meeting or convention, some sort of honorarium would be in order, especially if he/she is coming from some distance away. That is, the group should pay the presenter, not the other way around. Give 'em gas money, buy them dinner, comp them a convention pass . . . give them something.

To expect someone to give a presentation at their own expense and then expect them to pay to register for your event is ludicrous. But it appears to be SOP in this hobby.

Walt Lankenau

If the show is so bad that you want the presenter to pay to show it, why are you inflicting it on your paying customers?

Rest assured that it is NOT S.O.P., not at least with any NRHS chapter whose meetings I have attended. I believe Cook is specifically highlighting only especially egregious examples of what I can only call idiocy.

If this stupidity is indeed S.O.P., I'm definitely going out looking for a new hobby.

Let me take a moment to explain that this issue of asking people to volunteer or present clinics or programs, then telling them that they have to join the organization and pay registration to participate in the event, had already been discussed privately among several of us who participate in this forum before the current discussion began. It had happened very recently with a very large national organization that is NOT part of or involved with the NRHS. It was a frequently discussed topic among some of the RYPN participants who live in the Northeast. Mr. Mitchell's mention of the 2005 NRHS example simply provided another notice of this practice and got us started on it again.

If these kind of obstructions put in the path of volunteers and presenters end up progressing to a wider implementation in the hobby, it will indeed be time for all of us to look for other ways to productively use our spare time. We are all in this hobby to enjoy it, and situations that require people to jump through hoops and over hurdles to volunteer their help aren't enjoyable and don't help to achieve worthwhile results.

Hopefully the groups that are already engaging in the practice will reconsider their policies.

PC

It’s not just RR topics, believe me. I am considered a well-versed person on a historical subject that has nothing to do with railroads, and I have been asked to give talks at various relevant events in many states over the past few years. You’d be surprised how many “invites” I’ve gotten from other states that at the end of the letter or e-mail state the conditions of my “membership” in a group I’ll never see again. In most cases, they expect me to pay for a membership to present something to them! I was blown away the first few times it happened, but now I have a form response. It doesn’t happen every day but I get maybe 2-3 of these a year. It pretty much states that while I do not expect (or even want) to be lavished with riches for appearing at an event, I don’t appear at anything that isn’t local for me, unless at the very least my minimum expenses are covered, certainly to include not paying to attend the event I was sought out for an “invited” to (and yes, I put that word in quotes sometimes). I’m sure I’ve ticked a few people off like that. I’ve even had a few call me with “who do you think you are?” responses. I have had to ask them why I should have the same selfless dedication to a group I have never been associated with as its membership does when they want something from me out of the blue. You can always hear a pin drop when I put it like that. It NEVER occurs to them, volunteers in groups totally forget there’s a big world out there who has no affinity for their group like they do and should be expected to shoulder the burden like the membership does.
I got my 25-year NRHS pin last year (at the age of 39, I think it made me one of the youngest people ever to be awarded one) and for the past few years I’ve wondered why I’m still a member. The initial question is quite valid; Is the NRHS a historical education association or an “old boy’s club playing with trains”? It’s easy to argue it either way as I’ve seen both. The last convention I was around was Portland. I registered because I felt I should as I still maintain membership in the Florida chapter that welcomed me as a kid back in the 80s (I now live over 3000 miles away) and I still have friends there. A couple of pals from that chapter came out and we chased 4449/700 and hit local operations in the area. Neither of them registered and we didn’t ride anything. I didn’t even think to pick up my “packet” and bag of stuff until I was leaving at the end of the week. Tacoma is next year and that’s even closer and I plan on registering again for the same reason; a sense of loyalty that I’m not sure of its origins. The NRHS hasn’t really given me all that much to justify being a member after 26 years. But if my pals from Florida don’t come this time, I’ll probably ride at least one of the trips.
But if indeed the NRHS is a historical origination, what they do at a public event shouldn’t be secret. It totally defeats the purpose.

There seems to be a perception on the part of some of the groups that are imposing these kind of "join and register" requirements that you must somehow benefit financially from your access to their membership, and therefore you should be required to pay for that "priviledge". If you are the owner or manager of a tourist railroad, the curator of a museum, or are a primary employee in a business like publishing or model railroad supply that caters to railroad interests, then you have a valid commercial reason to be seeking out these groups. However in most cases the people involved in those kinds of business activity are able to treat it as a business expense, and many of them have expense support from their business or their employer. Personally, I have never been in the position of working a job where public speaking was any part of the job description or was supported by my employer. I sometimes wonder how nice it would have been to be in that kind of a situation. Being close to retirement now, I will not have the opportunity to find out.

If you are an employee of a railroad or a technical person working for an equipment builder, not only do you not have that kind of support from your job, you may also face a hostile response at work for doing programs, even though you do not present anything even remotely relating to your employer. This is increasingly true in the internet age where somebody who has some issue with you or your employer can run to their computer and make a public squalk about anything they want to. This is a big reason why many people working in the industry below the level of President or Vice President in their organizations won't get involved with railfan events any more.

I have also been put in the situation where it was implied that I must somehow "profit" from doing speaking at railfan events. So in the spirit of Mr. Mitchell's initial disclaimer, let me just offer that I am engaging in this discussion largely as an observer and my commentary is mostly based on past experiences. I pretty much dropped out of this activity three years ago to get more time to do writing. I only plan on doing one program the rest of this year, for a group where I have been a member for 35 years. So the outcome of this issue, and whether the practices we have discussed become more widely adopted, will have little or no effect on my activities. But I will continue to offer my views as I see fit, as is the priviledge of any other member of this organization.

I am very thankful for the groups that over the years offered help with the expense of reaching their locations because they made it possible to travel much greater distances than would have been possible solely on the home budget.

PC

Amen, Preston.

It really is silly for a group to insist a speaker obtain a membership or pay for the privilege of presenting. A guest speaker offers a win-win. The group receives the benefit of new information (and the possible prestige of an industry figure) and the speaker gets a chance to "spread the gospel" to interested parties.

Now if the speaker wants access to the group's database, that's a different issue. But overall, the inviting group would better serve its members by doing away with such speaker roadblocks as mandatory memberships.

Sloan

Yes - and this is a GOOD THING. Here's why.

There is a fundamental difference between

* "We are a symposium, we need your expertise to fill out our curriculum".

* "I am a person of unknown importance and I want to present on my subject".

The latter might include vanity presenters who know nothing or have no audience... people whose importance you do not realize... experts who are off-topic for your event... and middle experts when you already have a top expert presenting.

As you can see, there's a curve between the desire of the venue to have the presenter, and the desire of the presenter to present. Your position on that curve should, and MUST, determine your compensation. Otherwise every single attendee will have a "presentation" and want to be comped.

Where's the Good Thing in this? The fact that serious, self-motivated presenters can present AT ALL in a professional venue with lots of attendees. Without comps, it becomes a win/win. The presenter gets his audience - and use of a $100/hour conference room - at no additional cost. The convention adds variety to the show at no additional cost. After all, that conference must size for its busiest hour, and that conference room will cost the same empty or full.

Still, those conference rooms are limited. It may be constructive to take an Adam Smith capitalist model here: you are functionally in a "bidding war" for those rooms. If you are sitting there with arms crossed saying "pay me", you can be beat by someone who will present for free (say, to move their books). I agree with Sloan that it's a win-win at SOME point, but that pivot point may not be where the presenter wants it to be, nor where the convention knows it to be. This is all subject to negotiation, and for sure: there are no hard-and-fast rules.

Often, a speaker or presenter serves as the "entertainment" at a rail-oriented convention, meeting, or banquet. Now, suppose the entertainment was, oh, say a bluegrass band playing railroad tunes. Would they be also be asked to pay a registration fee and join the organization, in order to have the privilege of entertaining the membership?

Just sayin'.

Walt Lankenau

Walt's point is right on target.

As others have mentioned, there's various levels of presentations, ranging from "Hey, wanna see some snapshots of my grandkids riding Thomas" to one of the "big names" of the railway preservation business, and accordingly they should be offered different "incentives" to present. For example, the keynote speaker might get a comped room, or dinner on the host etc.

While it's great to support your local historic operation, what many folks fail to realize is that creating a good presentation takes time, effort and money. It's nice enough that the presentor is willing to share that work for free, now you want them to pay for the privilege? No wonder many folks say "Thanks, but no thanks..." when presented with offers like that.

Yes, many photographers and authors love what they do, but many of them also make some or all of their living doing it. Granted, sometimes a "presentation" is also a "book promo" and that's a different can of worms, but in many cases it's not.

Try this experiment the next time you're at your local camera store. When they tell you the price for that fancy new lens, after you pick yourself up off the floor, ask how much of a discount they offer on the lens if you only use it for taking photos for your local non-profit or charity.

I make part of my living (at this point, alas, a very small part-) as a professional musician. I do play gratis with two groups, one of which is a British Brass Band that I am a founding member of, and of which I am currently a board member. The other group is a community orchestra, with some really neat people that I enjoy socializing with while doing a little coaching.

The orchestra is sponsored by one of the local colleges, and is considered to be a course. People are expected to pay tuition. So far, I have been able to duck the issue by citing the advice given by one of my union's executive board members, "Tell them that the union says it is OK to volunteer your time, but if you 'pay to play' you may get brought up on charges".

This sounds very much like being asked to put on a presentation, after having to join the group for the privilege of making your presentation. If they insist I pay 'tuition', for a 'course' that I don't need, it will take all the enjoyment out of playing there, and I'll leave. If it isn't fun (and also costs money-), simply don't do it-

Okay, a thought comes to mind after this thoroughly off-track discussion:

*What groups or chapters actually succeed in getting a "volunteer" presenter to pony up for a membership to give a program; and
*Who in #&££ is stupid or motivated enough to actually DO this, if anyone????

I cannot think of a better example of insular thinking or "navel-gazing" than pulling together a meeting where only members may participate. I mean, at least with a homebrewing club, you're sharing booze.........