If we are to lambaste the NRHS team, should we also do the same for the Reading and Northern? They ran #425 over the same route to position the train. No published schedule and the diesel lead #425. Isn't that a double whammy?

This discussion reminds me of the days long before universal internet when the steam crew at my "home" museum, after countless hours of hard, dirty work (they'd show up in the washroom looking like they'd been "workin' in a coal mine, goin' down down" all day) finally got the old iron horse back in running condition. It was amazing how many "foamers" showed up for the test runs. Of course if you asked one of them for a contribution or for a few hours of labor, they'd be long gone and hard to find. Oh, well, it goes with the territory.

Just a thought (and you can say I'm full of hooey if you like), but what about turning the chasers into a revenue source? I'm thinking of a package of maps, schedules, and so on to direct the chasers to safe, public locations for their photos, with appropriate safety tips included. I'm thinking of a minimal cost package, say $5.00 or so; this could be used for regularly scheduled operations (such as the Strasburg) as well as the specials.

The only potential objection that might arise, and it's potentially a serious one, is the question of liability if some fool follows the map but doesn't follow good sense or the safety instructions.

Any thoughts?



It can't be done. Let me extract from my prior post.

First, because you can't enforce exclusion, there's no way to make people ante up. Its like an unattended roadside stand (without the threat of theft). Now with turn-by-turn voice directed GPS and scanners, what can you get from a trip sponsor you can't cook up yourself-and you of course know your needs better.

Second, because its not "rivalrous", there's no impediment to sharing. Its like digitized music, except you can share knowledge of the excursion with friends (and have an incentive to do so) without fear of violating copyright laws.

If you think you can solve this, have at it, there's a Nobel prize in economics waiting for you if you are successful.

The only potential objection that might arise, and it's potentially a serious one, is the question of liability if some fool follows the map but doesn't follow good sense or the safety instructions.

Any thoughts?

One more thought. Assume somebody goes out using your package and gets maimed or killed. No safety tip, nothing you write on your INVITATION to CHASE will be exculpatory in court; some barrister will turn your treat your package as an enticement to an attractive nuisance and you'll be nailed for a wrongful death action-the injured or deceased's majority status not withstanding.

If you're a member here and you're claiming you've never chased a train, you're a liar.

Very unfortunatly, mr. superheater is spot on. I've often thought of late that it's a VERY fortunate thing that we got this great nations infrastructire built before the lawyers and bean counters took over!!!

Can you just imagine how the proposal to build a railroad across 2,000 miles of wilderness populated by very hostile natives would be recieved today at the decision making level!!

I bet we all can, and we wonder why the Chinese are blowing our doors off??

No mystery to me!!

Ross Rowland

Oh, I knew going in this would not be "exclusive;" no way you could do that. AT the same time, I still thought it was a good marketing angle, a little extra bit of revenue, even though I forgot about the GPS stuff (I'm old school, my GPS's are on paper, they're called maps). As it is, either the analog or digital GPS can only tell you so much; even the Google map function, with that little guy, rarely takes you to where you want to go to photograph trains unless it's a grade crossing or a bridge, although Mapquest does have good satellite photos.

One thing that can help is the basic location of a tourist operation and its alignment; it can either go places cars don't (the famous trough on the South Branch Valley, served by the Potomac Eagle is one example), or you might have the luxury of running on a main line with a 4-8-4 that can outrun the auto traffic (extremely rare and hard to do at this time, as the WM 734 incident tells us).

Superheater's legal question was just the sort of thing I was worried about. At the same time, one has to ask if just running a steam train would be considered grounds for a suit in such a case? I think it's ridiculous, but some lawyer might try it.

I can't help but wonder if we do have too many lawyers. Taking on such crazy causes suggests the desperation of a saturated lawyer market.

I gave up chasing a long time ago, when the NS steam program was still running. I had too many unpleasant experiences with boorish, rude and reckless "railfans" who risked their necks and mine, and were insulting besides. This was on my last chase, which was a 4501 trip to Front Royal.

The Reading & Northern is a private, for-profit corporation, pretty much (as legend goes) under the control of one individual, who is also, directly or functionally, the outright owner of the 425 and the passenger rolling stock. The Reading & Northern is not a non-profit 501(c)3 corporation. They can choose to publicize their activities or not, just like, say, a Class One's office car special or Operation Lifesaver trip.

The NRHS is a non-profit 501(c)3 corporation, which ostensibly has, in addition to running fan trips, a mission of education and preservation of railroad history. Somehow, I started this discussion because I was under the impression that the NRHS was partially about the dissemination and education of rail history and enthusiasm. It's possible I was wrong, and looking more like I was wrong with each passing examination of the NRHS website and convention protocols.

I hear an ad on the radio at work sometimes; Wildwood NJ has "free fireworks every Friday night". How do you charge for fireworks? And if someone has an auto accident going to see the 'free' fireworks, can they sue Wildwood for providing an attractive nuisance? Or for inadequate traffic control?

I agree with Ross and others on the attorneys and beancountners-

A later thought: GPS units. Haven't there been accidents where someone following GPS instructions -"Turn left here"- has turned onto active tracks, or into a canal. Have the GPS manufacturers been held liable for any of these accidents? And isn't having a GPS in your car, visible to the driver, like having a TV? Not legal in many states- Maps rule, but only if you have studied them ahead of time-

The last time I really chased a train was one of the EBT winter spectaculars in the '70s. The PA State Troopers were threatening to give tickets to chasers that had pulled over to take pictures. Today, on the rare occasions that I go out, I'll pick just one location and watch.

After spending the time to read each response, it has dawned on me why so many responses on threads are duplicated - there's lot's of reading to do, but, how can you respond intelligently if you don't review.

I disagree with Rob (whose posts I typically enjoy) and side with Alexander - Sandy only asked for a heads up to get a quick view of the engine for his 2 year old. No complaints of the policy of either R&N nor Steamtown and this is after all, RYPN - better source of such info vrs Home Depot.

Obviously this led to the chaser debate.

Many, like myself, find their greatest enjoyment photographing and documenting train moves more then the ride itself. When the ride is either sold out (in the case of the Convention), or more to the point, offers too few or no photo runbys then that event is becomes much less appealing to many and in a sense, not targeted to our audience. If you want the chasers you need to give then what they seek. If you want the riders, do the same. If you want then BOTH - either offer more runbys or coordinate more photo charters. Pete Lerro, John Craft, Martin Hansen and others do this for that very reason - in fact, I've heard many seasoned railphotographers say they are skipping the "madhouse" and waiting for the charter. After all, the public events are oriented towards the families and railfans that prefer to ride and share good times with friends.

Having said this - as a responsible railfan, it should be obvious that the continued success of such events is better guaranteed by our support. Photos publicize the event, sure, but I try to make it a point to purchase tickets when I chase, make donations when and where possible and I am a member of several organizations (MILW 261, PM 1225, NKP 765, SP 4449, Nevada Norther, ect).


I love the idea of chaser packs and I understand they were VERY SUCESSFUL on the Conway Scenic. If liability is a concern, forget calling it a chaser pack and call it a SUPPORT PACK. Kit includes a postcard, a notepad, whatever, a donation and a badge of some sort easily visible providing proof of support and more importantly advertising the NEED of such support to others. "Hey, what's that?" "It's a badge showing my support of this event EVEN THOUGH I'M NOT RIDING, WHERE'S YOURS?"

And, how about simply MAKING IT EASY TO DONATE??

1) Set up a 1 week phone blitz after the event - text 261 to make a donation over the next 7 days.

2) Set up a donation table - make it obvious!

3) Offer a token in exhange for a donation. Recall an episode of Sienfeild where George makes an unoticed donation and steals it back in an attempt to be seen. People tend to like acknowledgment of such - it's why Red Cross has marathon shirts, PBS offers those ugly hand bags and Wildlife Preserve offers $2.00 water bottles. I'll be honest, I have a few coins and bricks I could brag about...

4) ASK for the support. Ever see the donation cups at the supermarket, McDonnalds, or have the cashier ask if you'd like to make a donation of $XX with this sale? Now have you often seen similar at the tourist gift shop? Or when you purchase your ticket to ride? The NRHS does it.

/Mitch

"Support Pack" as opposed to "Chaser Pack"--I like that.

Some of the best lawyers (and accountants) are very successful for just such judicious use of language. Sometimes they are even useful! And in the real world, too!

I also like your thoughts about this being a complete package, including something like a badge, window decal, or bumper sticker that advertises the purchaser's support.

This sounds like you've done some thinking on this--and I appreciate that.

Someone else doing some thinking. . .worth a read, if you haven't done so yet.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=29680

If you're a member here and you're claiming you've never chased a train, you're a liar.


I’m not claiming I never chased, I’m claiming there are specific economic reasons why you can’t turn it into a reliable revenue source. For the sake of disclosure: I have chased the 425, mostly because I had already bought 6 tickets that summer and it was in my back yard. I also have chased the NS F’s (unsuccessfully, and they can get their support for it from the politicians they were going to wine and dine that night). Oh yeah, I followed the AARPCO? Special into Steamtown in 1999. Otherwise, getting in a chase caravan is a little like driving on New Year’s Eve.

I love the idea of chaser packs and I understand they were VERY SUCESSFUL on the Conway Scenic.

Define very successful. You used the past tense and that indicates it wasn’t successful enough to be continued.

I've often thought of late that it's a VERY fortunate thing that we got this great nations infrastructire built before the lawyers and bean counters took over!!!

Actually Ross, railroading HAS ALWAYS been a legal thicket. Abraham Lincoln made his name and quite a fortune as a railroad lawyer before becoming POTUS 16, and it only became worse when the ICC came into being in 1887 and the progressives made it more powerful and more unaccountable with such deplorable laws as the Hepburn Act (1906). In that environment, SCOTUS AJ Felix Frankfurter also made his name litigating railroad matters. We suffered under those Pharisees for 108 years, and it wasn’t until the government actually began running a railroad that it admitted its rules made it impossible to run a railroad they way the unelected bureaucrats wanted it to be run. Hence the Staggers Act and the ICC Termination Act. Of course just 15 years later, we have those looking to reconstitute it.

As for the “bean counters”, as far back as the 1950’s Arthur Anderson and other major firms whose audits were once good as gold were trying to get the ICC to allow railroads to drop the inane lunacy that disallowed depreciation of track structures. Because allowable rates were based upon some magical incantation called adequate return of capital, and they weren’t accounting for a big part of the cost of running trains-railroads just kept reducing speeds as trucks utilized Interstates to peel off freight volume. The ICC –dominated for decades by lawyers- obstinately refused to allow GAAP and this as much as anything else this starved the Northeast Railroads. That’s why the CNJ and other roads you ran on are “fallen flags”.

We bean counters only cause problems when we try to make results instead of report them. Our necessity is testified to by the fact that when Dartmouth created the first MBA program in 1896, it was to train railroad accountants-in large part to respond to the Napoleonic Henry Carter Adams demands.

I’d suggest that you might want to consider the effects of imperious politicians and their client regulators-but of late you expressed an affection for them, or at least one.

Wildwood NJ has "free fireworks every Friday night". How do you charge for fireworks?

You don’t. Fireworks displays are a textbook example of “public goods” (in the truest sense of word, and in complete keeping with Juvenal’s “bread and circuses”). The standard textbook response to “public goods” is that government taxes the citizenry to create enough of a revenue stream to allow an “optimal amount” of production-of course the difficulty of determining what’s optimal is attested to by constructs such as Arrow’s impossibility theorem. Arrow is also a Nobel laureate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrow%27s_ ... ty_theorem

Unfortunately, while public fireworks displays are “somewhat” confined to a fixed area, and as a result have a long history of municipal, business association and event (baseball teams offer them as an adjunct to the primary attraction and as a billboard) sponsorship, anything that can be chased goes through multiple jurisdictions -and in the present fiscal environment, the politicians aren’t likely to open a new spigot for an intense but limited audience.


ASK for the support. Ever see the donation cups at the supermarket, McDonnalds, or have the cashier ask if you'd like to make a donation of $XX with this sale? Now have you often seen similar at the tourist gift shop? Or when you purchase your ticket to ride? The NRHS does it.

Indeed we can do that. We don't do it nearly enough. I'm aware of a project REAL close to were I type from, that will succeed precisely because it has been successful in negotiating the charitable environment-albeit some portion was foundational and governmental. However in your example-McDonald’s is using the cups to support its sponsored charities-not its business operations.

Yes, if you would, read the "manifesto" titled thread. I thought since there were a few different threads, I'd start one with my perspective as an organizer.

Crosby

PS, I'm very happy the young railfan got to see the 425 come into town!

Ozzman,

I remember seeing a couple of young kids on the chase from Jim Thorpe to Port Clinton - perhaps that was you? If this footage reminds you of a spot that you were at, let me know...

Here's video footage that I shot of the Lehigh Rambler excursion on Saturday - enjoy, share with friends, and don't forget to watch my other videos!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJhUjkjVdJA