Hello All

You may have read on the boards that we at Endless Mtn Rails hit a few speed bumps last week while running our events. On Tuesday June 22nd one of the D&H Units derailed two axles while entering the CP mainline at Scranton. On Thursday June 24th, after performing 4 runbys at Tobyhanna, we were informed that a truck hit a bridge, knocking track out of alignment, between us and Scranton.

Here's how we handled the situations:

On Tuesday, most of the train was stretched out in the Steamtown Yard when the trailing unit dropped in two axles near a switch just west of Bridge 60. Within about 10 minutes Steamtown had it's GP 9 fired up and on it's way to pull the 9 passenger cars into the yard. We unloaded in a safe area and had both Steamtown and the Trolley museum admit excursion goes free of charge while the errant locomotive was rerailed. We came up with a departure time and informed everyone of that time as they detrained. Turns out we were overly cautious and while we told people we'd leave at noon, we could have left by 11:30. Since we'd already announced a departure time, we stayed with it. Total delay caused by the derailment itself was about 3 hours.

On Thursday we did several runbys at Tobyhanna (25 miles east of Scranton) and as we were boarding for run back to the city, we were informed that a truck had hit a railroad bridge about midway between us and Scranton, knocking the track some 9 inches out of alignment. We were put into a holding pattern at Tobyhanna Station, where the local NRHS chapter has a small museum and refreshment stand. We gave people the option of remaining off the train with instructions not to leave the depot area while a back up plan was formulated. Turns out the DL guys were able to make it to the suspect bridge in about 20 minutes (it's a 30 minute drive, haven't figured the math out yet), inspect it and deem it safe for a "walkover" less than an hour after first discovering the problem. The buses we had called on stanby were never used and in the end we made it to Scranton about 45 minutes late when all was said and done.

We were in a safe area each time, on Tuesday we set a new departure time, on Thursday we were able to keep people in one general area. I've always been of the opinion that if there is to be a long delay that it's better to give people the option to detrain, stretch their legs, get some air if it can be done safely and in a controlled manner. I feel this becomes particularly important on hot days with non-air conditioned equipment.

My question is: In these situations, were we correct in letting people off the train during the delays? I'm not soliciting praise by any means. On Friday I was mildly scolded by one of the NRHS bigwigs for the course of action we took and I'll admit I was somewhat taken aback. Then I got to thinking, could I have been in the wrong? The passengers seemed to like having options, and we didn't leave anyone behind BUT should we have kept people aboard?

Looking for any experiences or opinions!

Dave Crosby

This reminds me of the airlines and the problems they have had with delays. It's a plane, waiting to taxi or can't get into the gate, etc. etc., so people complain about being stuck on the plane for hours. Try to let them off of the plane, well you can try, but it's an airport, tons of other pieces of moving equipment, other planes, baggage/fuel vehicles, etc.

With trains, there's generally not as many other moving vehicles to worry about (except maybe other trains). I'd say sure, let them off of the train if they want, but do what you did, tell them a specific departure time, or make sure everyone stays close. Otherwise, you leave without them. Both times, the passengers were in a safe, secure area - it wasn't like you were dropping them off in the middle of Enola yard with dozens of other trains running around you. I'd say be smart about it, if it's feasible, give the option to let people off of the train, stretch their legs, etc., but remember, when the train is ready to go, it goes...whether you're on it or not.

Sounds like you handled it very well Dave! I don't know why the big wigs would want to keep the passengers on a hot and stuffy non moving train.

And you know if you made people sit they would have complained of being on the train to long. Options is a good thing, and having things for people to do are even better.

I think you did good!
Anthony

Is this trip being run for the passengers' pleasure or the operator's convenience? Remember, you already have their money.
I got this same scolding from Mr. John Bortz, Jr. at New Hope & Ivyland RR in 1978. "Amtrak doesn't do it, and it's historically incorrect to treat our passengers any differently."
Many years ago, aeroplane companies attempted to provide off site diversions for stranded passengers when flights were delayed in strange places, but after the end of Pullman Company competition, that practice has died away. While some misguided rabble rousers are trying to pressure Congress to move in an anti-business direction on this matter, I'm sure your "NRHS bigwigs", who may work for real railroads, have lobbyists to keep harmful regulations at bay.
As a passenger, I support your example.

Thanks for the input

The mild scolding my partner and I got was from a 30 year Amtrak man, so that my have been where his perspective came from. Like I said, I'm just curious if there was a chance (perish the thought!) that I was wrong...

Dave Crosby

I always remember the time I rode the Amtrak Zephyr in the early days when they ran "backwards" from Denver to Cheyenne and then resumed normal direction for the run to Oakland. We had an hour layover in Cheyenne, and I used it to explore the UP roundhouse (remember, this was 1971). I kept a close eye on my watch, because the train only ran tri-weekly in those days, and I didn't have enough money for two nights in Wyoming. That said, an excursion is a different matter, especially if it's not on a main line railroad. Letting the passengers get out and move around can improve attitudes all around, especially among the younger riders. Health experts love to extol the virtues of exercise as a mood-brightener. It's even better if there's something to do or watch (boats on a river, a farmer plowing a field), and the railfans will appreciate a chance to photograph the train if it's in a non-scheduled location. Just make sure everyone knows the drill. Once the departure time is determined, a crew member should go to each car, get everyone's attention, and tell them of the plan. Don't rely on a PA system (and I say this as someone who used to maintain them). For example, "The track repairs are in progress, and we expect to leave here at 1:30 PM. The engineer will sound the horn (or whistle) at 1:20 and 1:25. It's OK to get off and walk around when we open the doors, but it's best if you stay in sight of the train." This scenario will vary with the circumstances, but the important thing is being sure that all of your passengers are aware.

I don't see anything wrong with what you did. It was a sensible, safe and crowd-pleasing course of action, and if that's not the way to get further business, I don't know what is. You didn't leave anyone behind or anything, so what could be the problem? Besides, consider the heat. Letting the passengers off was a safety measure.

The bitter reality is that the times you will have a convergence of a delay, an ability to let passengers off safely/etc., AND control of the location in which to let off passengers are almost nonexistent. Not an option, not an issue.

If it's a mainline excursion, you're at the mercy of the host railroad or operator. You got an emergency (a train derailed up the line), and you're awaiting a relief crew or buses. Will they let you let people off? Is there a platform, or civilization? Are you at an Amtrak station with a shopping mall across the street, or Podunk Crossroads, population 17 (more or less)? Both have their pluses and minuses (something to do, also someplace to be distracted and be left behind).

And let's be honest: Just like it only takes a couple idiot train chasers to "ruin" it for thousands of others, the only reason to adopt such an idiotic rationale on passenger detraining is because, deep down, you know that ONE passenger is going to wander off and be left behind in Podunk Crossroads, or think that he will be able to get a photo of the train as the passengers load up, then make the train stop one more time to pick him up after he gets the photo. Or better yet, he wanders off and gets hit by a car, gets shot in a drug deal gone bad, or falls into the river and drowns, and the survivors of course sue the railroad, the organizing group, the company that built the passenger cars, Amtrak, the local transit agency, Nikon, Canon, the scanner maker, the owner of the building across the street, and every passenger on the train.

But considering that the NRHS seems perfectly willing to let the prospect of a couple "wacko" chasers rob hundreds or thousands of others of the opportunity to see one of their trains without sitting along the track all day, well, the apparent attitude of this Amtrak guy is perfectly in fitting with the excursion in question.

By the way, I was told today that a certain "big name" photographer managed to "escape" the Tuesday NRHS trip to the outskirts of Sunbury while said train was at its VERY lengthy layover in Sunbury (holding for a freight and servicing the train's lavatories), and chased the return of the train to Scranton, apparently riding with another "big name" that was, er, chasing all day.......... I haven't confirmed this with either of them, but.......

Two other thoughts that occur:
*Didn't we hear them say that the excursions were run for the "benefit" of the paying customers? So, do we treat the paying customers like invited guests, like paying patrons, or like cattle or coal lumps?
*If we're going to go with the rationale "that's the way the real railroads do it/did it", then I guess, to paraphrase the 1960's era New Yorker cartoon of a salesman pointing to an "authentic" New Haven-painted toy train set, we should also come equipped with dirty windows, broken seats and toilets, and a breakdown every few minutes........ Pardon me for being "revisionist" with my "history," but I don't really thing that's the railroad history that Steamtown and the ELDCPS wants to preserve.....

From Dave's original post...

"You may have read on the boards that we at Endless Mtn Rails hit a few speed bumps last week while running our events. On Tuesday June 22nd one of the D&H Units derailed two axles while entering the CP mainline at Scranton. On Thursday June 24th, after performing 4 runbys at Tobyhanna, we were informed that a truck hit a bridge, knocking track out of alignment, between us and Scranton..."

In both cases you handled it right !

Because of my schedule, the delay in Scranton gave me an opportunity to see some of equipment at Steamtown that I hadn't seen recently, including the Reading units.

At Toby, there wasn't that much too do after the runbys and getting everyone back on the train was the right call.

Bob H

I and many of my friends were on these delayed trains. I heard no one say what you did was a bad idea. YOU GUYS DID A GREAT JOB!

David, what was his reasoning?

I've suffered many delays on Amtrak, ranging from firehoses across the NEC to 4 hours late departing NYC because Amfleet bathrooms are apparently un-defrostable. The worst was six hours sitting on the tarmac in an Airbus 320 prior to takeoff.

In all those delays, Amtrak let you off whenever they were at a station, which was common. JetBlue... not so much.