yes, but it isn't hurting anyone, the section they want to keep is before the crossings, the crossings could be removed, and they could keep their connection

OK first off - you need to have enough experience in these deals to know the sound of an "opening offer". I've seen opening offers of $500k for a rail line the railroad finally sold for $100k - and then carried paper on at below prime. I for one am not even slightly intimidated by a $20k opening offer.

They've gotta get in there and negotiate. This is partly a "worthiness test". Remember Grasselli Tower, "Tower Under The Gun"? Those guys worked their butts off to make that happen. Those guys deserved to have their tower saved. Does that apply in Saginaw? Or is it more a case like Cleveland where they were just handed a world-class trolley collection, and they sat around running up expenses waiting for imaginary government megabucks, rather than bootstrapping it into something self-sufficient.

A survival challenge is the best thing that can happen to a museum. It separates the Clevelands from the Grasselli's.

Someone mentioned the harsh realities. The harsh realities is that it takes money to preserve equipment, restore it to operation, and MAINTAIN it. It also costs money to have access to a railroad. If your REALLY lucky, you might be able to run on that railroad --- that costs money too. Then there is insurance, the cost of keeping on the lights, mowing the grass, etc. And in most cases, admission fees don't pay the bills. Some have gotten creative, some have been able to do things others haven't, but its not 1982, or 1991 --- its 2010. Their is a cost to "play," and I can tell you that $20,000 is dirt cheap these days folks when it comes to having access (if you can GET access).

The comment about "we can't understand why CSX has changed, 'cause in 1991 they were great." That's 19 years ago people. If you haven't talked with your railroad, or kept up connections with staff, employees, people in 19 years, or you expect that nothing has changed in corporate American since then, wake up and smell the cow-dung.

Corporate reality is that. CSX answers to a Board, stockholders, etc., and if there isn't a proven reason why history is important to them (and by proven I mean it makes money) our bleeding hearts don't mean squat to them. It takes real effort to have a relationship with railroads these days --- and its a two way street. As has been said before --- the Trainmaster or Conductor you screw today could be the CFO who tells you to go fly a kite tomorrow. There was a time when things could also be done on a "local" level --- but in today's day and age of lawsuits and quick and easy downsizing, no one wants to take the chance of saying yes if it means possibly losing their job. That, and as we get farther away from an era when depots, passenger cars, steam locomotives, friction bearings, (and even not rotating end cap roller bearings) were commonplace, the amount of employees at a railroad who even UNDERSTAND or are EDUCATED about the stuff we care about is dwindling fast. I mean, Amtrak started in 1971 --- most Heritage equipment was gone by the late 1980's --- how many current Amtrak employees know about aging brake systems or electrical systems; and from their standpoint, why should they?

The fact is, there are dwindling resources and those who care. Even fewer resources that have the money and are willing to put it into what we care about. To expect corporate American to simply care because we do just isn't a rational argument anymore.

Sorry. Truth hurts.

NS's announcement is great --- and it gives hope. But realize that its a change in management and an individual who helped make that call. Great things can and do happen --- but to think that it can happen without a ton of effort, or that it can be done on the fly, or that you can do it for free anymore --- sorry, nope, not gonna happen.

Remember the fairly short length of track in question involves two switches, one of them on the mainline. With the foundry inactive, there is no traffic to pay the bills.

The switch entering the museum from the spur would be low risk, but consider the liability of the mainline switch. What if several cars of LPG picked the points and piled up in peoples' back yards? What if kids were in those yards?

If the foundry was active and handling many cars of freight, the liability would be offset by considerable revenue. How much revenue can they expect from a museum that can't raise $20K?

If you were CSX, would you take this matter seriously? Can you really take a museum seriously if they throw up their hands in despair and run to the press saying they can't raise the money? Have they tried? The article doesn't mention any effort.

The article is a bit vague regarding the cost.

Is the $20K an outright purchase, or an annual lease? If it's a purchase, have they approached the railroad to see if a payment plan can spread out the cost? Have they investigated financing the purchase, to spread out the cost?

Does the section of track they've requested include sufficient tail track to serve the museum?

Who is supposed to pay for maintenance of the mainline switch, and what is that annual expense? What happens when the mainline switch needs total replacement- or is it at that point already, and that is part of the reason the railroad wants to remove it?

From Google Street View, this doesn't look like a high speed mainline with heavy traffic, but I know nothing about the line. What's the story on traffic levels and speed?

Would the cost be lower if they let the mainline switch go? There are such things as temporary, removable "switches" that will lift a car or engine up and over a track. Would CSX agree to such a move, or craning directly from the mainline on the very rare occasion that a piece of equipment (which meets interchange and RR requirements, or riding on a qualifying flatcar) moves in or out?

Expensive yes, but optional- just how badly do you wish to save the car?

There are so many unanswered questions, but from the published information it's hard to demonize CSX for their actions. It may not be the best PR, but their actions are easily understood.

Sorry if I just can't buy into the "CSX is evil" train of thought. They're just a business, totally responsible to their shareholders and shedding all unnecessary cost and liability.

Steve Hunter
Cardinal, Ontario

Despite this thread being started by a new member the questions asked are legitimate while the intent to create bad publicity is ill advised.

Why does CSX frown upon steam? Specifically. Was there an event or changing of the gaurds? Why did Chessie System start a program and why did it eventually end it and what conditions would be appropriate for it (as CSX) to resume?

As for forming a group to promote the return of steam - do that, rather then attempt to defame the company you hope to work with. If UP and now NS along with BNSF find value in a program (or at the least cooperation / steam sponsorship) then it's likely CSX simply needs to be shown the light. See above questions.

/Mitch

Because the switch is probably worn out and needs to be replaced, and instead of spending $20K on a new switch, they could straight-rail it for much less, and reduce operating costs by not having to maintain it. They're not a charity.

The event? A woman spilled a cup of coffee in her lap, sued McDonald's for millions and won.

Okay, so it wasn't that specific event but, as we became a more litigious society it became more and more difficult to justify the risk of running steam excursions over the rewards.

Actually, railroads gave rise to what we call "ambulance chasers" with the development of personal injury tort law in the 19th century! While the oft-reported McDonald's coffee example is cited as evidence that we are more litigous, we were pretty darn litigious 120 years ago as well. Railroad accidents, and their frequency gave rise to developments in tort law, personal injury law, FELA and a whole host of other items.

There is a book, from the University of Virginia Press titled Lawyering for the Railroad that helps to explain the developments of railroads, railroad law, the law business, and the litigious nature of the late 19th century.

Once again, from a railroad's perspective, do you want the potential to increase your liability? It's a valid question, especially in light of what the railroad is supposed to do, make money.

David Wilkins
Profit Margin, Missouri

If CSX is asking $20,000, it's probably the opening gambit in negotiations to buy the track outright. It's worth more than that to them as scrap, and as for that switch, 20 grand wouldn't cover the cost of a new set of switch timber for the main line switch, much less replacing the steel. I'm not familiar with this line, but if it's even a secondary main line with signals, the wiring, bonding, and insulation of the switch would make this an expensive project. On Conrail lines, if a switch was required in a signalled track, just cutting in the switch was a flat $200,000 -- take it or leave it. In addition, most railroads charge an annual switch maintenance fee, starting around $5,000. If the Saginaw museum hasn't paid for switch maintenance in 19 years, I don't see why they are complaining.

Short and to the point:

It is NOT the job of CSX--or, for that matter UP, CP, NS, KCS, Pan Am, CN, FEC, or even RJ Corman, Reading & Northern, NJ Transit, whoever--to host and attend to your fantasies of a steam excursion program, or your "pet" diesel, or whatever.

Rather, it is the job of the potential preservationist/operator to convince the "big boy" that such an operation or arrangement is in their best mutual interests.

And as those of us on this board with experience in the matter can attest, you get a LOT further on the latter with the approach "What are your concerns, and how can we make this work?" rather than throwing tantrums, calling names, and garnering negative publicity for your potential host/partner if/when initially rejected (like, for example, a post on an online forum asking "how many dreams can they crush?").

Have you guys ever seen how railfans act when a big choo choo is on a mainline railroad? They climb up signal masts, chop down trees, chase the trains down the access roads...I could go on.
One day one of these foamers will fall under the choo choo or get electrocuted...and that will be the nightmare that every railroad has feared. So it is not only the presence of the choo choo but the behaviour of fans.

Good feedback guys. Don't take my sentiment personally. It's ment to be provocative, that's what generates discussion. I have learned so much here, it's great. I had no idea it could cost $200k to cut in a switch.

We seem to have got stuck in a rut on the switch, I'm still interested in hearing more about other events in the past.
Thanks

One word...relationships. Build them at the local level. Take your trainmaster to lunch.Meet his boss. Take him to lunch. Invite him out to an event. Act like a professional railroader and make your case. Many times,they are watching you when you don't even know they are. Several years ago, I had invited a VP of a Class One to visit our operation. He did indeed visit,twice( once unannounced) and INVITED us to go to an employee appreciation event 200 miles away. We ended up not attending due to internal issues,but we were invited. Work to resolve the issues with your connections and good things can and will happen. there are several instances of things like this happening,and they don't always make the railfan press. I know. I've been part of them, more than once.

Some years ago the Operations Superintendant of a railway museum was giving the morning safety briefing to the operators. At one point, he said "Mr. ______, a vice president of [a Class 1 railroad] may be visiting here today. Does anybody know what he looks like?" (much shaking of heads and "no's"). "Well then, if we treat all our visitors as if they are the VP of the [big railroad], we should do OK."

There are very, very few "for sure" things in life, but the title of this thread is IMHO surely one of them.

If it's your hope that someday, some way CSX relaxes/modifies its current prohibition on allowing any historic/ antique equipment on its rails then trashing the current CSX management team is a sure-fire way of never seeing it happen.

Look, it's VERY straight forward. They've got one and only one professional responsibility, and that is to do everything possible to produce a competitive return on investment to their stockholders....period!!!

ANYTHING that detracts/hinders/dilutes or jeapordizes that objective is to be avoided. As has been well spoken to in several above posts they don't get paid to help the railroad preservation community succeed.

Let's all do what we can individually to help the just announced NS program be a huge success as our way of putting our efforts where are mouths are.

Perhaps, just perhaps, if the NS program is seen as producing results worthy of the efforts that NS puts into it.....just maybe it could influence the thinking of others???

Remember.....never, ever burn a bridge in life as you may find that one day it's your only way home!!!

How many of us has taken a few moments to write a personal letter of thanks to Mr. Wick Moorman thanking him for his announced sponsorship of the new NS/TVRM steam heritage program??. May I respectfully suggest doing so as a great way towards making a contribution.

Respectfully submitted, Ross Rowland