Came from Class-1 meeting this week, and there's a new (and expensive) issue indirectly impacting.

Positive Train Control (PTC) as a result of the Glendale accident is an accomplished fact and its only a matter of how long and how much its going to cost. But did you know that EVERY MAINLINE SWITCH is going to have to be tied into it? That requires at least a detector, antenna, power.... while not a power switch the switch indication is going to have to be tied into the system. And ANY, repeat ANY switch that has any inhalation hazard material passing over it (even if not a mainline) also falls under full PTC, even if very little traffic.

That's causing Class 1's to inventory every switch in the world. Surprise! your rusty mainline museum access switch is costing them even more money.

Want to help? The class 1's are struggling with what they consider a very, very expensive unfunded mandate with a short implementation deadline with rather limited benefits. They want to implement in the high-volume, high-passenger corridors first and the prime chemical corridors, and space it out by priority. Any help or even sympathy translated into political support probably wouldn't help rather than bashing. Educate yourself on the law, the cost, and the technology and see what you think.

Also heard, but can't confirm, that the FRA is expanding regulation to include that all grade crossings have to be tied into it as well so that if the device is malfunctioning it drops the signal/stops the train. Another great idea....but if the Class 1's are saddled with paying for it the easiest way out is to see if you can close a crossing.

Oh, and I'm not even getting into the locomotive regs.

Having a discussion on how to best keep live rail access to a museum is something very worthwhile. Many museums and tourist lines rely on keeping a connection to the national rail system. Bashing and debating how to best run a railroad is not part of our mission here. Please focus your comments.

Tom Gears
Moderator

Exactly as Tom stated.

Professional railroaders have no obligation at all to help perservationists, and those who do make the effort to assist deserve some courtesy and respect.

PC

Interesting title! One way to assure your self that a class 1 will cut off your access and/or deny access to others is to continue to post negative comments. The title in this case is a clear example of that. It was a CSX decision to deny access, plain and simple. So why do you folks find it necessary to continue to bad mouth them? I am willing to bet that if this line of comments continues, CSX might take note and cut everybody off. So my suggestion is that if you can't say something nice, keep your trap shut! Think it can't happen? It can and will. Ask the guy that constantly bad mouthed CSAO and it's director. I doubt he will ever gets his rolling stock out on their track! You never know who is reading these sites.

Later!
Mr. Ed

> CSX might take note and cut everybody off.

OK, I agree that bad-mouthing CSX isn't good policy and won't get us anywhere.

However... Do you really think the decision makers at CSX read the board? Do you really think they care one iota what a bunch of train fans think or say? Do you really think that any policy whatsoever at CSX would result from what's said about them here?

Sorry, but we just aren't that important! The movers and shakers at CSX are reading websites like CNN.com, not rypn. They don't even know we exist, let alone care what's said here.

Pure and simple, the decisions they make aren't driven by emotions and feelings, they're driven by business, since, in case you haven't noticed, CSX is a for profit corporation who owes it to their shareholders to do the best they can to earn money.

> It was a CSX decision to deny access, plain and simple.

They did NOT deny access. They simply said that if you want continued access, it will cost you $20k. In a museum's budget, that's big money, real big money. In the real business world that's chump change. You can't buy a vacant lot in Seattle for $20k, not even close. Sure, a donation would have been nice, but offering to sell something isn't the same as denying access.

To Bob Harbison who I know, respect and consider a good long time friend and associate.

I can tell you for a solid fact that yes, some of the key folks at CSX do monitor this board on a regular basis, and yes, things said here do have a real impact there and at the other Class 1's.

I know this is absolutely the case.

Just thought you and everyone should know the facts.

Ross Rowland

I will reconfirm what Ross posted, relatively recent discussions on RYPN have been mentioned to me on several occasions by Chief Mechanical Officers of major railroads, as well as industry consultants, and friends who work for the FRA.

PC

CSX did inherit a good number of top executives who came from NS, and were employed by that carrier when their steam program was terminated.

Coincidence? Maybe ... or maybe not.

Mitch,
Not sure, but you have to remember that CSX did run a steam program in 1993 with the 765 disguised as C&O 2765. Without pulling out the schedule, 765 did a pretty decent tour of CSX that fall from Michigan to Pennsylvania to Tennessee. Immediately after that season, CSX instituted the $200 million insurance policy which basically ended steam operations. The '94 New River Train operated with a loophole (Amtrak auspices maybe?), and since then, steam on CSX has been far and few between.

The other side of this is that Jerry Davis, who was with UP came to CSX at least for a brief time, and was the one of the main instigators in CSX borrowing UP 3985 for the Clinchfield Santa Claus Train in late 1992. Not sure when he left, but that may be a deciding factor as well.

Speaking of the 1993 CSX Steam Program, I wasn't there, but from a friend who was, the trips from Knoxville, TN to Corbin, KY had a bit of an issue with railfans at the yard in Knoxville where the train was boarding. At least one yard crew had to stop their engines, and walk out and tell people to move as they were standing on the tracks and blocking the switcher from it's assigned tasks.

Sometimes, we are our own worst enemy...

Nope, MARC Train Service insurance, as they already had a policy to run in West Virginia on CSX.

I performed the mechanical inspection of the rolling stock on the train for MARC (but that's another looong story!).

Steve

As your moderator, I can assure you that several large railroads and other organizations who do not post do read the board...

In some cases an employee is assigned the duty to read it on a regular basis, in other cases an employee who shares our interests calls attention to specific posts.

CSX does not owe railroad museums access... There was a time, years ago in a more regulated environment that you could force movement if a tariff for the movement existed... there is a old story about the precursor to the Colorado Railroad Museum (then located at a motel in Alamosa) having a temporary tariff posted (by a friendly 3rd party) at a western traffic agent's meeting for movement of "narrow gauge engines of less that 100,000 lbs from Durango to Alamosa" With a tariff in place, the movement was required by law...

I suspect that new regulations like positive train control, various automatic detector (for hot boxes and the like) and other improvements and modernizations will make it more difficult to use the regular railroad system.

Collectively railroad preservation benefited in sharing a common core technology with the regular railroad system... but our locomotives and cars in preservation have stopped evolving... while the railroad system continues to evolve... As it should be...

The issue of the growing divide between railroads and railroad museums, and between professional railroaders and railroad enthusiasts, is looming larger and larger and will have a significant effect on future preservation efforts. Unfortunately it is a live third rail and nobody wants to come in contact with it. Given the situation in the railroad industry with the economy and security concerns, and the unfortunate entitlement attitude that surfaces occasionally in preservation, one can only hope that much more capable highway hauling or flatcar loading services are available in the future. I don't see the very fragmented preservation industry being able to work out any kind of a national agreement with the class ones any time soon.

The attitudes in railroad discussions are often quite amusing too. In a 30+ page long discussion about a new locomotive order on another forum, there all of a sudden are some folks asking for "sources" now that an order is placed. They weren't concerned when dozens and dozens of previously unconfirmed and totally speculative reports were posted in years past. I wonder if they would suddenly be happy if they had the word of the person who authored the RFP for the equipment, the guy who designed it, the man who sold it, the consultant who will final inspect it, or the CMO of the railroad that will receive it, they all provided me basically the same information. But several other people posted the correct information independently, and the local "expert" participants all found fault with it anyway.

Being a railfan does not entitle anybody to anything.

PC

Some railfans forget that railroads are in the transportation business, not the entertainment industry.

The fact is that CSX isn't crushing any dreams. Those that have been crushed have mostly been so by the mistakes of those who pursued them. Demonstrate your capabilities to maintain a safe, professional operation. Treat every guest and volunteer respectfully, no matter how minor the matter may seem and know when it is best not to say something. Those are the keys to the castle.

At TVRM, one of our passenger service rules was that any question asked by a visitor or passenger was to be answered in a prompt, courteous manner. If a train was delayed, the crew would inform the passengers of the delay and its anticipated length. We knew that we were being watched by the other railroads and one senior conductor made that quite clear. As he put it, "we're volunteers but out here, we have to be more professional than the professionals."

Historically, TVRM was tested by the railroads that helped it. When relaying rail on the old ET&G, the Southern did not deed the entire property to the railroad. Only East Chattanooga to Tunnel Boulevard was donated-the railroad would have to replace the missing viaduct to obtain the remainder of the abandoned line. It took a little while, but we raised the money and the railroad honored their promise. TVRM also has historically had a high amount of participation from professional railroaders from the various trade and management groups. This has allowed the railroads to see that our people are just as competent as any of their people and that was what opened doors for us. The biggest test was (and still is) running down to the old Terminal Station and down to Georgia. There, the trains have to pass through an active interlocking on trackage rights. Those rights were only granted after extensive negotiations and test trips. Every trip is a test of our professionalism and each safe passage demonstrates that to the railroad.

All of this adds up to the recent announcement by NS that they will resume steam trips as a joint venture with the TVRM. TVRM has always given credit to NS where due and maintained sound professional relations with the NS and the Southern. TVRM has risen through the ranks over 30+ years of rail operations to become a top name in historic tourist railway operations-second only to the Strasburg. Attitude and aptitude are the factors that will make or break potential relationships.

That's quite possibly the best line I've read on an online railroad related forum, well, ever.