> No way. Never went west of Kansas City.

May, 1969 - The "Golden Spike Limited" to Promontory, Utah.

> May, 1969 - The "Golden Spike
> Limited" to Promontory, Utah.

Which was carried west of KC by UP 844, I believe . . .

JAC

> May, 1969 - The "Golden Spike
> Limited" to Promontory, Utah.

If I remember correctly the 765 didn't go all the way...I think it stopped in KC, and 844 might have pulled it the rest of the way.

I know my brother saw it flying through northern Ohio, where he got 2 shots and said forget it!

I personally only saw 759 once on her maiden trip from Conneaut to Northeast. I photo is on my web site. That was 1968, and they Christened her before departure.

Wheather or not you like Ross personally, you have to give him credit for putting a lot of steam back on the mainlines over a long period of time.

A side note..I probably have the last movies of 2101 under steam, shot a few miles before Silver Grove on its last day of operation. Sadly it burned a few months later.
Greg Scholl


Videos
sales@gregschollvideo.com

> If I remember correctly the 765 didn't go
> all the way...I think it stopped in KC, and
> 844 might have pulled it the rest of the
> way.

> I know my brother saw it flying through
> northern Ohio, where he got 2 shots and said
> forget it!

> I personally only saw 759 once on her maiden
> trip from Conneaut to Northeast. I photo is
> on my web site. That was 1968, and they
> Christened her before departure.

> Wheather or not you like Ross personally,
> you have to give him credit for putting a
> lot of steam back on the mainlines over a
> long period of time.

> A side note..I probably have the last movies
> of 2101 under steam, shot a few miles before
> Silver Grove on its last day of operation.
> Sadly it burned a few months later.
> Greg Scholl

I forgot this...meantime I see Craft mentioned the KC and 844 thing also. My mind isn't totally gone yet at least. :)

http://www.gregschollvideo.com/gallery/pic3.html

cut and paste...I don't think you can click it cause it has text with it on the web page.

Greg Scholl


759
sales@gregschollvideo.com

Fair enough, and I would say more than fair in certain respects.



v-scarpitti@worldnet.att.net

> May, 1969 - The "Golden Spike
> Limited" to Promontory, Utah.

The train went to Ogden, UT, but 759 didn't. The 759 was removed from the train at Kansas City; UP's brand new DDA40X 6900 pulled the train from Kansas City to Ogden. Thus, 759 never went west of Kansas City.

UP's 8444 pulled a special from Omaha to Ogden, then ran shuttle trains between Salt Lake City and Ogden during the multi-day centennial events.

Some of the old veterans from those early days of Iron Horse Enterprises can tell you why 759 didn't go west of KC. It boiled down to proof that if you misbehave on one railroad, you had better hope that the railroad official you defied/crapped upon there doesn't end up in a higher position at another railroad that you want to run your steam engine on later on.

> May, 1969 - The "Golden Spike
> Limited" to Promontory, Utah.
According to the book HIGH IRON 1971 put out by Quadrant Press dealing with NKP#759on page 18 the golden Spike LTD on May 3-18 1969 Loco #759 ran from Harmon ,NY to Kansas City where a Up Diesel took over,, From Salt Lake to Ogden the UP 4-8-4 Then #8444 pulled the special... On the return trip back to NEW York NKP#759 was operateed from Kansas City to Baltmore where a Specially Painted then PENN Central GG-1 coupled on to the train for the run back to NEW YORK....

cprh1b@attbi.com

The Golden Spike thing in 1969 was a highlight for 759, but so too was the pulling of the last run of the Pocohontas on the N&W, from Roanoke to Norfolk. She pulled freight down the line from Hagerstown as I recall.

Oddly enough my family rode the Pocohontas from Cincinnati to Roanoke the week before that, and found out about it. I regret not making the trip down to see the 759 a week later. Sure wish 611 had been around then, but 759 was a good stand-in.
Greg Scholl

Videos
sales@gregschollvideo.com

It has certainly been interesting reading all the posts RE: R.E.R, Jr.

"Say what you want about the guy, he put HIS money where everyone's MOUTH was, and ran steam when EVERYONE said it couldn't be done." HP, 1972, a comment that my publisher had me leave out of my "High Iron 1971" book.

And, for the historical nit-pickers, Ross' first trip was a Fall 1966 outing on the CNJ, with Blount's #127 (aka CPR 1278) taking the round trip from Jersey City to Jim Chunk and back. Ross was all of 22 years old at the time.

The NKP Berk that Ross leased for the AFT was NKP 763, the Roanoke engine. It came to CNJ's E'port Shop in 1974, sat inside for a few months, and then went back.

And, Bennett, it wasn't just the 1976 AFT that got some young guys interested in saving (and restoring) mechanical dinosaurs. Some of those low-budget, laid-back CNJ trips of 1966, 67, and 68 planted plenty 'o seeds.......

hpincus@mindspring.com

> Trust me, I have an MS in Communications.
> That makes me no better or worse equipped
> for the content of this board.

> OK, who am I to dispute YOUR declaration of YOUR inadequacy.

I enjoyed some of HP's reminiscences about Ross's past trips and some history. Say what you will about the guy, he has done much to advance the cause of railway preservation in the broader public arena, even if it was taking steam to a wider audience. Like Bennett's observations about his sons seeing the AFT, my interest in steam was introduced at age 3 during a visit to see the AFT and 2101 in Atlantic City, NJ in 1975. Like Jim Wrinn's recent book on the Southern/NS steam program, I'd like to see a book on Rowland and his High Iron/ACE 2000/CSS/Iron Horse Enterprises/Pacific Wilderness Rwy sagas. About a year ago I asked Ross if would ever do a book on his life's railroading pursuits and he remarked "maybe someday." With some of HP's suberb b&w photography from the early years, what an interesting read it would make.

K.R. Bell
RR Museum of PA

> It has certainly been interesting reading
> all the posts RE: R.E.R, Jr.

> "Say what you want about the guy, he
> put HIS money where everyone's MOUTH was,
> and ran steam when EVERYONE said it couldn't
> be done." HP, 1972, a comment that my
> publisher had me leave out of my "High
> Iron 1971" book.

> And, for the historical nit-pickers, Ross'
> first trip was a Fall 1966 outing on the
> CNJ, with Blount's #127 (aka CPR 1278)
> taking the round trip from Jersey City to
> Jim Chunk and back. Ross was all of 22 years
> old at the time.

> The NKP Berk that Ross leased for the AFT
> was NKP 763, the Roanoke engine. It came to
> CNJ's E'port Shop in 1974, sat inside for a
> few months, and then went back.

> And, Bennett, it wasn't just the 1976 AFT
> that got some young guys interested in
> saving (and restoring) mechanical dinosaurs.
> Some of those low-budget, laid-back CNJ
> trips of 1966, 67, and 68 planted plenty 'o
> seeds.......


http://rrmuseumpa.org

K.R. Bell,
Hey I'm a an ok writer, maybe me and you could do it. I live not too far from you.

Good thought though, I'd be very interested to read his story.

Jeff Lisowski
West Chester, Pa

Free book
unfunkyufo76@hotmail.com

In an article a while back, TRAINS magazine hit the nail on the head when they described Ross Rowland as "OUR P.T. Barnum" and concluded with the prediction "that RER will be back". I hope so--and I wouldn't be surprised.

I don't know Mr. Rowland personally, but I have met and talked with him a few times over the past 30+ years. He has always come across as wanting to give the public (railfans and non-railfans) the best entertainment and educational experience possible for their money. There were a lot of happly faces on board and at trackside when Ross, Paul, and 614 showed a new generation of northeastern US fans what big steam at mainline speeds was all about.

As others have said, RER has brought the realm of steam locomotive and railway preservation to the attention of the general public like no other individual. For that alone there should be less "bashing" and more thanking going on. Give him chance at another big event and I'd wager he could give that little blue steam engine a run for its money!!

Although he may have ruffled a few feathers over the years, there is no denying that he has had the ability and leadership to bring things together and make things happen, often when others said it couldn't be done (of course, a chunk of praise must also be given to the numerous people that have worked and volunteered with him over the years to make his successes like HICO, GSL, and AFT possible!).

BTW, when the dreaded Big Boy restoration project was announced, if they had said that RER was the man behind it, I wouldn't have doubted its success for a minute!

Kurt is right, a book about Ross Rowland's steam railroading achievments and experiences would be interesting and probably a good seller. I'd buy a copy! Howard Pincus's "HIGH IRON" soft cover books do a good job covering Ross' early days with his HICO excursions (and other people's trips).

Now on to the things that bother me the most about this "Ross bashing" stuff.

1. I've heard it said that "RER was just a rich kid that bought his way into steam" and that he really didn't (or doesn't) know what he was doing.

Not true. I'm old enough to remember a 20-something RER in the cab of 2-8-0 60 while he volunteered during the early days of the Black River & Western RR here in NJ. He learned steam a coal scoop at a time. Back then the BR&W leased the track from the PRR and their engine crews had to be qualified by the PRR. He was good enough for the "P Company"!

2. He abuses locomotives, doesn't maintain them, and runs them into the ground.

Abuse:
As far as I've ever seen, any locomotive under RER's control has been operated in a manner like they were designed to be operated. 614 is a high speed dual service locomotive and her trips to Port Jervis certainly wouldn't have left her designers shaking their heads. Yes, there were some problems (broken rings, loose trailer truck tire, jammed stoker, etc), but nothing that an engine wouldn't have experienced in its regular service days. Even the '01's "gear-spewing booster incident" on the Chessie Steam Special probably wouldn't have made a "Dutchie shopman" turn over in his Reading grave. And I wish I had a dollar for every time I've heard "How Ross blew out 759's cylinder head back in '71 from carrying over too much water"...actually a key came out of the crosshead freeing the piston in its bore...and I'm not sure if Ross was even running the engine. And going way back to Feb 1968, when then-fresh-from-the-shop Strasburg 2-10-0 90--doubleheading with Steamtown 4-6-2 127 on an early HICO fan trip--had one of her tender trucks fall apart and derail during the trip. Even the Strasburg guys can have a bad day.

Not maintaining:
That is an insult to a whole host of top notch steam folks, ranging from (the late?) Joe Karal (an NKP steam veteran) to more recently Scott Lindsay, that have worked with RER on the various engines. Enough said.

Running into the ground:
Those early HICO leased engines (127, 2102, etc) lived on for many years beyond the involvement of RER. HICO returned 759 to Steamtown in operating condition, I think with a shot at another flue extension. The '01's fate was bad luck and an accident. Without the fire she might have been running to Port Jervis in place of 614. Rowland and the other partners turned 2100 from "sows ear into a silk purse" and unfortunately couldn't find a place to run the engine. True, this engine is really untested as an excursion locomotive. At least no one can say THIS one was run into the ground by RER. As for 614, I seriously doubt this locomotive is a worn out machine. Not by a long shot. Certainly not at the hands of RER and his steam crews. While I don't doubt that she would require some continuing "running repairs", I doubt any thing would be "fatal". Of course there are the new FRA steam regs and from what has been reported here and elsewhere on the 'net 614 is past the time to get a (one year?) waiver. Still it would have been only short term and the tear down would have been needed anyway. She is safe now and I'll wager that Mr. Muller and all the ex-BM&R/R&N-turned-NH&I steam folks are itching to get their hands on her! I can't help but wonder if Mr. Muller is thinking "maybe this will be 1986 all over again". This in reference his being in the right place at right time to acquire the '02 from the old RDI partnership--and at a price you wouldn't believe!

So, bottom line, try to lighten up on RER and if you see him this year on the Ohio Central, go and thank him for all the great steam railroading he has brought all of us the last 35 or so years!

Scared of heights (and flames!), so gently stepping off the soapbox.

Regards,
Jim Robinson

> There were a lot
> of happly faces on board and at trackside
> when Ross, Paul, and 614 showed a new
> generation of northeastern US fans what big
> steam at mainline speeds was all about.

AMEN! I too at the tender age of 4 was introduced to what big steam was all about in 614's cab in 1980. I had seen plenty of small steam in my young age but nothing like that.

He really has given the railfan community and regular people alike a taste of railroading. Heck he was what 22 at the time in '68? That in it self is impressive.

Ross has the initiative and support to do the things he's done. And as far as his funding, how many of us really know his life story prior to entering steam? Not many I'm sure. Whatever he did before sure paid off in the end. The last 30+ years speak for themselves.

Jeff Lisowski
West Chester, Pa


Free book
unfunkyufo76@hotmail.com

I do know him; have known him for 20 years. Have had some peripheral involvment on various projects with him, attended meetings with him, etc.

Undisputable truth: He has accomplished so many "impossible, never-happen" type things that it would take hours just to list them all. A master showman, master salesman and many other things in one, larger-than-life package.

Undisputable truth #2: As noted, he pretty much introduced the concept of big steam to another generation. Who knows how many of today's preservationists and museum volunteers and even individual projects got their start from someone seeing one of Ross's engines performing?

Undisputable truth #3: For all the good things, there have been some bad with lasting repercusions, and we have lost some things because of that. It's difficult to prove a negative, but some trips didn't happen because of Ross and some of his methods. Certain railroad officials, who were low-level peons back in the 1970's but today are CEO's and VPO's, having endured Ross events that went a little over the edge, swore they'd never allow steam.....ANY steam.....again if they were ever in a position to have say over it. And they have held to that vow, to our loss. There has been some negative fallout over the years that haunts us to this day in the form of railroads, large and small, with no-steam policies. Certainly Ross is not responsible for all of those, and I am not insinuating that he is. But he is primarily responsible for some, and it's important to keep the perspective in clear focus.

Sometimes, you have to ask yourself: Which is more important? Doing an all-out, no-holds-barred trip that ties up the railroad, alienates and angers the officials of that railroad, produces spectacular photos and recordings and memories, but results in a 20-year no-steam policy? Or doing something perhaps a little less spectacular, less intrusive and less likely to tick off the host, thus building trust that opens the door (just a crack) to the possibility of future operations, maybe even culminating in a regular steam program on that road?

So, in Ross, we have a great human being, warts and all, who has done great things, good and bad, and will probably do more great things.

He's quite a guy.