Cribbed from Trains Newswire, full story there for subscribers:



Pull up the chairs and popcorn. This could get interesting really fast.........

(edited to reflect thread status)


ARE and trains like it are not about restoring historic equipment, preserving original fabric or anything of the ilk. The AOE trainset, while beautiful, was modified way beyond the cars' original selves. I consider the Ringling train to be much the same. It's neat to know the history of the cars, but they are - literally - shells of what they once were.

Don't get me wrong, I am behind the idea of any train that gets people to ride the rails, but is the ARE preservation? Or is this a topic for railroad.net or trainorders?

Food for thought.



Rob

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Tom Gears
Moderator

I would say that the only way this even approaches preservation is if specific equipment is historical in nature. In the case of the ARE train some of those cars had glorious pasts...we might wonder what will happen to them. Will they be scrapped or so fourth.

The Greenbriar chooch was perhaps preservation related when a steam choo choo was mentioned but without a steam choo choo it is simply a travel venture. Not much different then a cruise ship.

T7

Ross had nothing to do with this so, I don't understand why his name even comes up.

Xanterra also owns Grand Canyon Railway so, it's possible the cars could end up there. Just hope things are buttoned up and stored in a nice place before winter hits.

I agree with others. ARE and GBX are not about preservation. We've had too much RyPN drift of late and this is another example of an off-topic bandwith eater. Moderators, please help set a new course.

Wesley

With all due respect, I'm forced to disagree.

If we take this "that's not real preservation" argument to its extreme, what the Strasburg Rail Road does isn't "preservation" either, until they restore Plymouth #1 and revert to hauling freight cars to the mill. All those steamers and coaches never ran there; the station was moved; etc.

I can also say this about the Verde Canyon RR--another railroad that uses "car shells" refitted to their needs. Or EVERY trolley operation besides New Orleans'. Or the Valley RR. Or Durango & Silverton. Or Midwest Central.

Were/are the AOE, GrandLuxe, or similar cars "preservation"? Not in the sense of "preserving" the experience of Pullman day coaches, toilets that open to the track, and meals cooked with sawdust-log ovens. But it made people want to experience passenger rail travel--people that wouldn't take an Amtrak train or city bus if you took a gun to their heads, I'm wagering in some cases.

Furthermore, Xanterra, the operators of the train and the Grand Canyon RR, whether we like it or not, is in a position to dramatically impact both our "preservation" field and the "tourist train travel" field. It's not impossible that they could become as big a "player" in our field as, say, Barnum & Bailey and Strates Carnival are in the private-varnish/AAPRRCO field. The same applies for Greenbrier Express, should it get off the ground and prove a success

If we want to harbor delusions that major railroads will eventually welcome mainline excursions and/or steam, any chance that they will become reality will come with the help of, or only because of, "big" players like Xanterra. We ignore them at our peril. WE NEED success stories out there to show the current generation of railroaders that passenger trains can operate successfully and within the rules; at the same time, we as a group also need to be able to deflect or prevent the potential damage from the slipshod delusions of an incompetent or poorly-formulated proposal or operation, lest they set the entire avocation back 50 years with a bankruptcy or derailment.

The last thing we need is yet another situation where--to make up an example--someone presents a proposal to run mainline steam (say, Milwaukee 261 and train) on CSX or NJ Transit to help pay for a visit to the next Eastern gathering of steam at Steamtown or the B&O Museum, and CSX/NJT, remembering the bad taste left in the mouth from a failed/bankrupt GBX or Gambler's Express or whatever, says "over the dead bodies of ourselves, our children, our grandchildren, and our corporate successors!"

Railroads will not get a "bad taste..." from something that doesn't even get running. It's the ones that run and fail en route that tend to leave a bad taste.

Facadism on wheels? ;-)

Not meaning to start a war as to what is preservation and what is not, but here's a question...
What's wrong with adapting a piece of equipment for another use or updating it to a modern standard? Railroads did it all the time....baggages cars converted to MOW, car converted to caboose, cars completely remodelled, etc. I don't mean you should destroy something that is original, intact and preservable.

Bill

If New Orleans is real preservation, then I submit that the Branford (Conn.) Electric Rwy. Ass'n. is also. The Museum's line and one of the line's early cars were bought directly from the operating trolley company. Track, wire, and car were never removed from the property. East Troy, Wisc. is a similar situation.

Not necessarily. It's possible that--again, let's just use this as an example because it's potentially real, not because we wish ill upon them--Greenbrier Express, after doing who knows how much legwork to hammer out an agreement with CSX and Amtrak and other involved parties, finds the operation untenable for whatever reason--insurance, lack of interest, whatever--and ends up not running. Congratulations, someone just wasted the time and goodwill of various folks at CSX and Amtrak. How friendly are they likely to be towards the next offbeat proposal, such as a Fair of the Iron Horse special or a New River Gorge train with PV's? "Don't waste our time until you have a check for $10 million, bub."

I agree with Sandy's analysis - my sense is the luxury land cruise concept didn't garner enough concrete expressions of interest to make the business concept realistic, and the idea was either deferred or dropped for reconsideration.

Bothering railroad executives without a good, concrete business plan that you have proven in some way in hope that "if you build it they will come" will diminish initial credibility from any potential operator making the first pitch.

Xanterra at least has some track record to use as a basis for getting the foot in the door, apparently had a plan for testing their idea before too many resources were committed, and a back-out strategy now in action.

dave

Railroads deal with offbeat proposals all the time. I worked for a short line for a few years and was involved in a few proposals that were very offbeat. One move even got to the point where officials from both companies toured the railroad on a hi-rail truck. After a month or two of planning the company planning the shipment decided to take it another route. No one was upset by their decision and the two companies kept an open relationship for any future movements.

Ha! I get it. The solution is to never proposed new ideas, never invest time, money, or thought towards another attraction, and above all else, try to keep enthusiasm contained. It could work, but it might offend somebody.
This is venture capitalism and leadership at it's best.

I'm sorry, but this thread began in cynicism and sounded like a vendetta when Tom Gears spoke up. It's aimed at one person, veiled only slightly.