I'm not totally convinced that in today's society steam sells tourist/museum rides better than diesel. There are plenty of diesel powered operations out there that are doing well; and many former all-steam tourist operations now run diesels on at least a portion of their schedules. Why the demise in steam operations in recent years? Very simple: steam doesn't bring in enough additional riders to pay for the additional costs of operating it? Yes, there are a few (but getting less all the time) steam operations that are still doing well--but even the mighty Strasburg Rail Road has admitted to a significant drop in ridership over the past decade or so which has put on hold some of the "plans" the railroad had for the future. Strasburg has been fortunate to supplement its ridership revenue with its great shop facility doing contract work for other operations; not many other steam operations are so lucky.

I have to agree with HOD Bill and Superheater on the point that if an operation is going to advertise steam, a reasonable attempt should be made to operate it or people will be disappointed. As one who spent 17-1/2 years trying to keep steam running, not always successfully, I can appreciate the problems associated with doing so-and I've experienced many times having to deal with the disappointment of people finding a diesel on the point when steam was advertised. From a personal standpoint, I've experienced going to tourist roads/museums a number of times only to find the promised locomotive not running. Disappointing? Definitely!
Now that I'm retired and living on a fixed income, its much more important to me that a given railroad is operating the equipment it says it will when I visit; with the current cost of gas, food and accomodations, I simply can't afford to go somewhere to be disappointed.

I've recently been trying to put together a steam vacation for September, and am finding it difficult to coordinate much of a trip. Premier operations like the Valley Railroad and Strasburg pretty much guarantee steam on a daily basis during the Fall, but most others offer only a limited schedule. And phone calls to confirm that steam will be running on a given date are answered "subject to availability". Yes, its getting hard to enjoy steam these days!


Frederick G. Bailey

Perhaps, with the web, planned equipment can be announced a week, or a month, in advance. Still subject to breakdowns but much more likely than a brochure printed last November.

About twenty years ago the museum where I volunteer ran spring wildflower excursions with five heavyweight cars pulled by a 44 ton GE locomotive. It was sold to the general public as a wildflower train ride. The train ran one or two trips a day four weekends a year.

I worked regularly on this train as a conductor. Every trip I would get several inquiries if the train were steam powered even though the diesel locomotive was in plain sight when the passengers boarded. The five-chime air horn confused them.

I also asked passengers if this were their first rail ride of any kind. Although visitors lived in an area with rail rapid transit, streetcar, light rail, and rail commuter trains, over half the riders said this was their first train ride. I would guess that less than 5% of the riders were railfans of any flavor.

I don't think steam power would have made any difference to these people. It might have brought out a few more railfans but at tremendous cost increase. We made a 15 mile round trip including a photo runby using about 55 gallons of diesel fuel. The one time we ran a steam locomotive it went through 500 gallons of fuel; this was a worst case situation getting up steam slowly from a cold start to minimize boiler stress.

OA -

I like your idea. Perhaps a person at the various museums/tourist lines to tell RyPN say on Tuesday or Wednesday of the week that "we PLAN on operating 2-4-2 #9999 this coming Sunday" or "XY&Z interurban # 111 this coming Saturday". Maybe try it and see how it works out.

Les

Forget railfans.

The public cares whether their expectations were actually met or exceeded, or not. Joe Public and family choose what they want to spend discretionary entertainment funds on based on promotions made by us and everybody else with something to offer. If they choose any of us, and they experience what we tell them they will and like it as much as we tell them they will, they will be satisfied. If we don't give them the promised experience and make it enjoyable, they won't.

If operating steam is part of the package, implicitly or explicitly, it better be operating steam. Weasel language in fine print in the propaganda might protect you from legal action, but won't help a bit in the court of public opinion.

We control whether they care or not by telling them what to expect.

dave

I'd like to add something regarding W&W. Prior to the first round of floods, when ridership numbers were peaking at an all time high, with steam on the head end every weekend, numbers still fluctuated. I experienced many a trip down there with 98 on the head end and maybe 50 people (if that) on a 4 car train. The saving grace for those days were the Caboose Birthday Charters.

Steam doesn't always mean income. Offering the NH&I as an example. I see many of their trains pulling out of the station with mearly half a car full of people (lets leave pricing out of this convo.) and other times they will be heavy on riders. Location?...this example also shows that doesn't always convey riders. Can't get anymore "location location location" then being smack in the center of a town with huge draws.

W&W is in a prime location for what it is, a destination on its own. With excellent scenery, a great picnic grove, and excellent equipment and a solid family atmosphere, they should be beating people away with sticks, so to speak, every time they are open...but... if it's hot as hell out there or raining (or a chance of) you could be giving away free rides and you won't get many butts in the seats.

There are a lot of factors. I think each operation has to decide on its' own what is best for their bottom line. Obviously the bean counters know more, and where we've predicted the demise of operations removing steam from their regular schedule, we've been proven wrong.

If you advertise it, you should make sure its on the head end. If you can't CREW a loco, or don't have enough people on said crew for "back ups", then DON'T advertise it. You might as well cut your losses, because in the end, those butts that came out to see it and not find it, will most likely NOT return again, whereas an unexpected sight of steam on the head end will definitely provide you with a repeat rider.

This thread is very interesting. Does your local heritage railroad, tourist railroad, or museum know exactly what business they are in? Who are their customers? Do we really understand these things or do we just amble along doing what we think we should and missing out on a bigger picture or bigger dollars?

The need to provide education has been mentioned a couple times in this discussion. It is of course supposed to be one of the reasons that 501c3 non-profits exist.

So suppose that you are a member of the general public and are interested in steam locomotives but don't know a lot about them. You don't want to have to travel completely across the country and have to pay all the expenses of a week long session at a rail camp. You don't want to have to hike a couple miles around museum grounds to get to ask the docent or tour guide a few questions. You just want to attend an educational session that provides you with some basic knowledge and gives you the opportunity to discuss the subject with a live instructor.

So how many museums offer, either as a regular feature or occasional event, a one to two hour instructor taught technical program on the basics of steam locomotives? Not engineer for an hour, but a program that teaches what the locomotive is and how it functions. We are talking here about a program that would be readily understandable by someone just beginning to learn about the locomotives, that defines the equipment and its nomenclature, explains function and mechanics of the machine, provides an overview of the various auxiliary equipment, and perhaps includes a guided tour (actual or in photos) of one or more steam locomotives.

Do you know of a museum that does offer such a program? Is it a popular attraction? If your museum offered such a program, do you think it would be a worthwhile activity?

PC

Hi Folks,

I really like the suggestion about a crew member or docent taking time between runs to show off their locomotive to visitors. A particularly good time for this might be during the "turn around' layover", when there is often a period of 10 - 15 minutes when nothing is happening. This would ensure that paying passengers get a little extra face time with the crew and build some memories. It would also provide some time to suggest other things for people to do at the museum (or in town) when the train gets back. Having someone a passenger can ask for by name to show them around after the train returns would be a particularly nice touch.

A pet suggestion of mine would be to provide docents to visitors for shop tours. This works even better if a strategically-placed "visitor's gallery" within the shop facilities were staked out so visitors could be instructed as to the work going on. Another suggestion, docents should use first names - for example, "Look at Steve over there in the blue shirt. You'll notice he is using tool "A" to perform "something".

Remember, "butts in seats" are important, but so is "dwell time" - the time when people are milling around your facility - and "face time" - the more time you can spend telling your story to folks.

The longer people stay, the more they are likely to spend some of their hard-earned money for something that looks interesting or perhaps decide to become a member after all. And, oh by the way, the more fun they're having, the more likely they are to return. Repeat business is VERY cost effective. Ask yourself honestly, if you were a visitor to your museum, what would bring you back again? The answers to that question could perhaps be very instructive.

If visitors are having a pleasant time, the more likely they are to wander around town and see what else is going on. If you're not plugged into other town businesses, community activities, or perhaps the local chamber of commerce and you are not actively pursuing "cross promotional" initiatives, you're missing out on an important opportunity for increasing local revenues and support.


My two cents,
Glenn

PC, I think your suggestion is excellent. I believe that the vast majority of steam operators target the wrong audience. Selling a history lesson with an old steam engine complete with crew in bib overalls over a historic right of way just wreaks of a boring museum experience. This was fine 20 years ago when you had a large population of older folks who remembered steam & rail travel and wanted to re-create the nostalgia of their younger days. Now, those folks are either gone or on a fixed income, too feeble to travel, etc. The people with the money to travel and ride today might not even know the difference between steam and diesel. Exposure to railroads in general is gone other than the annoyance of waiting at a grade crossing. One past time that never seems to go away though is the facination with mechanical machinery. The hobby of restoring antique cars and car modifications for example seems to never go away. There are many individuals in their early 20's who's passion is restoring antique cars and muscle cars and spend substantial time and money doing so. Are these people history buffs? Nope. Do they have a fascination for vehicle mechanics and having something/seeing something unique? You bet! If you want a 20-30 year old to get interested in a steam operation telling them to come ride behind old 99 over the historic ABC railroad and see what life was like 60 years ago isn't going to cut it. Tell them to come out for a rare opportunity to ride behind a last of it's kind 4,000hp locomotive that stands 16feet tall 100ft long and can pull 1,000tons at 100miles per hour and you will peak some interest. History is important but the younger crowd want the uniqueness, the awe of it all. 99% of those unsuspecting people staring in amazement along the tracks are in shock and awe of something they've never seen before, the size, the sound, the power. The aren't saying "Oh wow that looks like a 4-8-4 from 1944 coming down the track with a recreation of the Hiawatha" Of course it all depends on your operation and what you are trying to achieve, but I still see alot of "If you run it they will come" attitudes and that simply doesn't hold true nowadays. Sell the excitement, not the history.

With all the support there is for steam on RYPN perhaps some museums should consider offering a "steam technical" event once in a while, a steam locomotive orientation class accompanied by a shop tour and hands-on opportunities, and maybe even working in some "engineer for an hour" activities.

Seems like there are plenty of people on here who could handle the technical support for such an event. In a poor economy what is to lose by trying something different? If you do it and it does not work, you just don't offer it again.

PC

It might be interesting to see if passenger loadings for a tourist operation that normally operates with diesels (yes, even vintage diesels) were to take a decidedly upward turn if steam were used instead. Would there be the corresponding 50 percent increase? For instance, are there more riders at the National Railroad Museum in Green Bay when their "diesel-powered" steamer operates rather than with a regular diesel?

There have been a couple of instances on this discussion board over the last few years where members posted comparative fuel consumption figures for diesels and steam in the same operation, and the general ratio has been that the gallons of fuel consumed for steam is about 5 times that for diesel on the same run. That ratio is pretty consistent with the comparative overall thermal efficiencies of the two types of locomotives. So based on the cost per gallon of what you are burning, I would think the question comes down to whether the additional ticket revenue can cover the additional fuel expense, water expense, and any additional crewing or operating costs.

I know that there have been a bunch of times when wonderful claims have been made for steam locomotives here, touting lower fuel consumption and reduced emissions compared with diesels. I can only observe that in the years I have been posting here there have been many RFP's issued by major commuter rail agencies in the United States for new power and new projects, that brought in proposals ranging from hundreds of millions to several billion dollars. I have not seen anybody associated with these advanced steam locomotives bid one of them for any of those jobs, nor have I seen them at any of the prebid meetings, which leads me to wonder whether the people who make the claims are serious or just letting off steam. If the locomotives can do all the things they claim, they should be able to bid and win a major contract with them.

PC

I believe that the operator carries the ball.And I also believe that it depends on the railroad and what it does and it's mission statement. As an example the "Grand Canyon". Max and Thelma thought it would be neat to power the railroad by steam
and for years they prided themselves on that.But the Grand Canyon is a people mover yes the scenery is beautiful but it is still a people mover.When the new owners came along it wasn't the "environmental card" that they originally played but the bottom "buck" diesel was cheaper to operate. The riders wouldn't diseapear and they were right.The railfans are not happy but a being in this business for 40 years railfans are a very small part of the ticket revenue on tourist roads.Fact. Working for the Georgetown Loop for over three years though I have seen in our case the push for
diesel for a period mainly because of mechanical constranits and then turning into for a short time a question why not run diesel? It's sure cheeper and look at the ridership
it's short of fantastic! Even when we got back into steam this year the operator was told by some in the industry, why run steam? diesel is better for the bottom line.But since the #12 has returned to service our steam section has been 90% over diesel at40%!A women stopped me on day and asked me if we were running steam I said yes and she said ,good if you had not been I would have never been back to ride.Steam does sell.People will come if you have it.I still say you can't force diesel on the public in many cases.In our case they know the difference!

Funny you should say that. There was a project to make a new steam locomotive called the "ACE 3000".