Funny thing about that, I met with several other people recently, we are all webmasters for various historical organizations, and one of the topics discussed was why some volunteers who were long-term supporters suddenly dropped out of participation in the groups. In some instances it seemed to follow caustic commentary about their participation posted to the discussion sites by individuals who have never done any comparable work and who seldom contributed any comparable level of effort. One or two "sour grapes" individuals armed with computers can very effectively discourage a lot of good people from participating when they start posting criticism where the entire world can see it. It is one of the risks of hosting a discussion board as part of your website.

PC

With NKP 759 in such good shape, perhaps an avenue to look at would be involving NKP interest groups in her rehabilitation? I assume if somebody comes forth with a huge basket of money and say, I'd sure like to see her operate once more, Steamtown would give it consideration. I guess it seems pointless to have a locomotive in good mechanical and steaming shape, then not utilize it to some positive end.
Just a thought.

I risk being accused of hijacking a thread, but oh well. Mr. Cook raises a good point. While the internet, on balance, is a useful tool, there are some people out there that make it a negative force. I've often cynically stated that RYPN is good for "internet volunteers" to tell real preservationists what to do, and how to do it.

That being said, my profession has helped me develop a thick skin. I could care less what the internet volunteers say. I think having a thick-skin is both part of railroading culture (See Mr. Ledbetter's commentary), and necessary.

And the sad thing is that there is no real defense or equal time provision to counter the "sour grapes" postings. Once they have had their moment of glory tearing up somebody else's efforts or participation the stuff they wrote is there more or less forever, accessible to the search engines, and viewable by their target's family and business associates.

PC

http://www.nps.gov/history/history/online_books/steamtown/shs2o.htm

That's the whole history of 759. It mentions everything Mr. Bailey has talked about. Quite an interesting history.

One little counterpoint, in only partial defense of the "negative" or otherwise skeptical approach many people take online..........

One of the cardinal rules of Public Relations is always putting a positive spin on things, no matter what the reality or situation in question. Watch any politician's PR folks. Watch a White House press briefing. Watch a railroad spokesperson after a massive derailment. Watch a power company spokesman a week after the ice storm.

Sometimes "the truth" simply won't come out without the forceful use of crowbars, winches, and power tools. We could be looking at a boiler that landed in a cornfield two hundred yards from the frame and wheels, and a PR person will say "At this time, we're reviewing our options after today's unfortunate little mechanical incident...." Such speaking, and the thought processes behind it, bespeaks either outright delusion on the part of the speaker/owners or an attempt to obscure the reality, usually somewhat badly. We don't like it when a political or corporate spokesman does it; why should we like it and nod in assent just because the subject is railroading?

No museum or operation with an iota of PR sense is going to come right out and say "that locomotive will never run again." There's always thew hope that someone will walk in after winning a $100 million lottery ticket and say "make it so". Right? Or, you say "we are about preservation, not operation" when someone wants to fire up that C&O Alleghany or UP Big Boy. And no one likes to be the bearer of bad news, although some will gain from injecting reality into a conversation about fantastical delusions.

I'm glad someone with the "inside" knowledge was available to clear up the rumors of 759's condition. I'm much more content to take the word of Brothers Bailey or Pincus than, say, the NPS Ranger who stands there and tells me all about the "Nickel Plate Railroad 2-4-8 type steam locomotive".......... (Yes, sadly, that actually happened to me some years ago.)

I too am grateful for Mr. Bailey's factual account of what really transpired to NKP 759. Perhaps his detailed first hand report will cause the script used by the Rangers at Scranton to be rewritten so that it complys with the real facts???

She is a fine locomotive and I am confident that she'll steam again someday.

As to the negatoids or if you prefer the Nattering Nabobs of Negativism ( NNN's) they 're a part of any human endeavour and I guess somehow contribute towards the greater good....although it's hard to figure out how. Very fortunatly there's only a tiny handful who frequent this valuable forum although one of them certainly does his best to make up for the small number.

I learned long ago that it matters not what one achieves or attempts to achieve they'll always be there in the wings ready to find fault and raise the art of Monday morning quarterbacking to a new high.

One interesting example was while the 759 with the Golden Spike Centennial Limited was parked on display in Buffalo NY where a huge crowd had gathered to take the free tour through her cab and the 3 display cars.....a member of the NNN tribe approached me and was irate that we had the nerve to paint the 759's tender blue&gold ( as was the entire consist) as "the Nickle Plate never had a blue engine".

As I've often shared...the only answer is to recognize them for the lost souls they are and then ignore them!!

Ross Rowland

Having just reread that doc, I dare say Fred's account is much more complete - including his discussion of the post-freeze fixes and steam up. His account should be part of her permanent record.


Those NPS descriptions have their oddities. In this one, it mentions the May 1958 overhaul of 759 was done by NK Porter. Huh? I assume someone confused NKP for NK Porter, or is it something else?

Rob

This thread has gone a bit off topic, but it has motivated me to write about one of my favorite subjects: Steamtown. That being said, I'll make a few more comments on some of the posts above.

John D. referred to Andy Barbera as "a delightful oldtimer". I'd go a bit further, and call Andy a great ambassador of steam. When High Iron Company returned #759 to Steamtown in August, 1971, Andy was a member of the HICO crew. Steamtown Foundation was beginning steam excursions on its own at the time, and SF's Executive Director Edgar T. Mead, Jr. asked Andy if he'd be interested in becoming Steamtown's chief engineer. Andy readily accepted, and it became very evident right from Day One on the job that Andy was a very special person. He loved steam locomotives, and was willing to share his knowledge and experience with anyone who was interested: young and old alike. From August, 1971 through October, 1980, countless visitors were Andy's "guests" in the cabs of Steamtown locomotives, and many got "the thrill of a lifetime" during cab rides with Andy at the throttle. During the time he spent as Steamtown's chief engineer, I'd have to say that Andy was one of Steamtown's greatest assets. Today, there are still many people who have fond memories of Andy at Steamtown. For those not fortunate enough to meet him in person, Andy was featured in the book THE RAILROADERS if you're able to find a copy.

GS Pro's comment on "Mr. Bailey's account of the freeze damage to #759 appears in the NPS written history of the locomotive". That's with good reason because "Mr. Bailey" provided the information! When the NPS assigned Gordon Chappell to write an assessment of the Steamtown collection, I became Steamtown Foundation's representative for the project. I gleaned much information from the SF locomotive files, and a lot more came from my recollections and personal files. Chappell acknowledged my contribution in the original edition of THE LOCOMOTIVES OF STEAMTOWN. Though I can't quote verbatim at the moment because I can't put my hands on my copy of that edition, Chappell went on to say that my decision not to join the Park Service was a "significant loss" because much of Steamtown's history was stored in my head. I was offered a position with the NPS as "Interpretive Specialist", but declined it mainly because I didn't consider it "my cup of tea". I considered myself an operations man, and couldn't see myself sitting around doing research work. When I told Amos Hawkins of my decision not to accept the position, I also informed him that my years with Steamtown had been dear to my heart and I'd be happy to provide the NPS with any knowledge that I had in my head about Steamtown in the past. Mark Morgan became Steamtown NPS historian shortly thereafter, and he did contact me on a fairly regular basis for several years--but I haven't heard from anyone else there in many years. However, my offer still stands--if anyone at Steamtown NPS today (Rangers included) wants any information that I may have, all they have to do is ask. Mark Morgan, incidentally, did a verbal history study which included interviews with many of the key employees and associates of the early Steamtown through the demise of the Steamtown Foundation era. It was supposed to be archived in the Steamtown NPS library. I've never listened to any of the interviews myself, but believe there's probably a wealth of information there. Those wishing to hear some "first hand" accounts of Steamtown history should check it out.

I have to agree that what Steamtown "Rangers" tell the public could use some improvement. I've personally heard some outlandish stories on several visits. Much of the information the Rangers need to portray things more accurately is probably already on site. Chappell's book, while it does contain a few typos and inaccuracies, is really a good overview of the Steamtown locomotive collection. Each locomotive was analyzed when the book was written, and the information was pretty accurate at the time. I suspect the biggest change today would be in the actual condition of some of the locomotives; who knows what 20-plus additional years of neglect has done to them? Morgan's interviews should provide plenty of "timeless" information, too. The library reportedly has an extensive book collection--do they have THE MAN FROM STEAMTOWN and ALONG THE IRON TRAIL, both of which contain much correct information about F. Nelson Blount and early Steamtown? The Steamtown NPS website has much information that some Rangers don't even know--is it too hard to check it out? And every Ranger should know what Kip Hagen had to say in his recent Railfan and Railroad magazine interview--that, I would think, pretty much sums up what the Park has planned for the immediate future! Will the Park management undertake better education of the Rangers, or will some Rangers who are dedicated to the "truth" take it upon themselves to provide more accurate information to the general public--whom the Rangers are supposed to be educating about the steam railroading era? I guess I would have to ask the Rangers a simple question? Is it more important to portray history as it really is or perpetuate railfan rumors/myths? Remember, what you tell someone on your tours is what will be repeated to others!

As far as the comment about #759 being returned to service because it is in restorable shape is concerned: yes, there are many (myself included) who would like to see #759 steam again. As Ross Rowland says, #759 is a fine machine, and I hope he's right it will eventually be returned to service. But it has to be at the right time and the right place. Unfortunately, Steamtown NPS's mission today does not include off-premis excursions like those operated by High Iron Company in the late 1960's and early 1970's that made #759 a famous excursion locomotive. It really would be a waste of time and money to restore #759 just to fire it up in Scranton a few times a year for demonstration purposes. It needs mainline excursions to make its restoration practical; let's face reality: where would it run regularly? We already have too many big locomotive around the country that have no place to run except perhaps once of twice a year; its a big investment to restore a locomotive to operating condition just to sit around most of the time, wasting valuable and expensive "tube time" doing nothing. So as much as I would like to see #759 restored to operation, I have to be practical about it. IF Steamtown NPS were to add another locomotive to its operating stable (and I know Kip Hagen has pretty much ruled out that possibility), I'd have to support something that the Park would use regularly. Some have suggested restoring one of the Vulcan saddletankers (local interest), or perhaps leasing CNJ 0-6-0 #113 when its restoration is completed--makes sense because any of those could augment/substitute for Baldwin #26 on the Yard Shuttle and/or yard switching duties. Illinois Central 2-8-0 #790 (which was actually considered for restoration a few years back) or Rahway Valley 2-8-0 #15 might make sense, too. Either would work well as a road engine on Carbondale line trains and could substitute (with a diesel helper if trains were heavy) on the Pocono Main if the regular excursion power used here was down. Now, wouldn't it be a neat demonstration to watch a steam switcher make up a local freight in the yard and then see a 2-8-0 pull it out of town? OK, Fred, stop dreaming! But I do think if the Park was to spend a million dollars-plus on something new, the latter scenario would fit much better into the Park's current mission than restoring #759 would.

Frederick G. Bailey

759 (and Ross) provided the original spark that fired my interest in steam and railroad history.

I was pleased to hear of 759's condition; pleased as punch to know she is in such good condition and stored under cover in a safe location that has good long term (say, 100+ years) prospects. We are blessed to have one running NKP Berk and may have another in near coming years, not to mention 1225. If 759 is "saved" for a future generation to be steamed up, it will be a wonderful moment for all, even if we aren't here for it.

Now if only the human knowledge and art can be passed down successfully.

Bob Bunge

From my dad's collection of museum and fantrip ephemera... also just found and dusted off a "Steam is Clean" button :)

Stephen
(also a member of the 'rode in the cab with Andy' club)

Here's the other side of this 46 year-old brochure...

Stephen

1) Promotional brochures tend not to be copyrighted--especially ones decades old with obsolete information or data on them.

2) You do not potentially deprive someone of a commercial sale of information/books/etc. by reposting images of a 1964 Steamtown brochure. The same kind of person that WOULD pay 50 cents for a 1964 brochure at a train show is not going to be satisfied with an image of one side of said brochure; they'll want the real thing as a collectible.

3) just because an image is posted by someone else at Facebook does not make said image copyright-free, nor does it absolve further parties re-displaying the image from responsibility for the copyright violation.

I dislike our current copyright laws, and I blame the Disney corporation and a certain rodent for most of the absurdities currently present in our copyright laws. Yes, it's still the responsibility of the copyright holder (does the Steamtown Foundation still exist?) to pursue alleged violations. I even occasionally raise the proverbial middle finger at the copyright laws now and again to benefit others. But "they is what they is." RyPN is already antsy enough given past threats to sue it/them; we don't need to seek trouble.

Ha! I think I have my "Steam is Clean" button still packed away. It is one of my favorite pieces of railfan railroadiana. I ditched my old brochure collection, though my earliest Steamtown flyers where from 1973 or so... nowhere near as old as yours.

How I loved those trips to Riverside as a kid.

What's nice is that my son feels the same way about our trips to Scranton, now!

And yes, Bbunge, that Berk and a certain broker were a key part of what "sold me" on steam as a kid.

Steamtown has always had a touch of magic for me. Wandering around Riverside among the machines on crowdless days was fantastic. Mom knew I wasn't going far, so I was "on my own." I think I wore my own butt impression into the seats in the movie car. Unfortunately, I always ran past the steam equipment upfront... it wasn't as "cool" as the locomotives were. Got my first cinder in the eye from #1278. I never imagined I would be attending college literally next door to the Steamtown Foundation loading platform in Scranton... eventually volunteering for a spell with the NPS... and getting to know many of the people who have worked tirelessly for the past few decades to make the park what it is today.

Somewhere I still have the kind written response from RER Jr. to a 5 year old kid who wrote to tell him he thought running #759 was a great idea (and sent me a B&W 8x10, too). ;-) I have a series of pictures of myself "growing up" standing in front of #759 at Riverside. My son has the same, standing on the roundhouse walkway in Scranton.

I have also been fortunate enough to get to know some the Steamtown/Green Mountain folks in New England, too.

The human element of Steamtown is as important as the stories of the machines themselves.

Rob

he NPS Ranger who stands there and tells me all about the "Nickel Plate Railroad 2-4-8 type steam locomotive".......... (Yes, sadly, that actually happened to me some years ago.)

Wow, picky.

Its called a transposition and its a rather common mistake.

That doesn't even rise to the level of "57 states".