N.C. Guest,

How bad is the Lion Gardiner? Trucks? How much would it cost to get it road worthy, excluding the interior? How much would it cost for roof repairs? Interior restoration?

Is this car available for any interested group? Trade? Lease?


Scott

"Lion Gardiner" (aka D&H 154, originally NYC 519) was built by Pullman in 1914. As an early steel car, it is of high-carbon steel construction-- a type of steel that is not as corrosion-resistant as the copper-bearing steels Pullman started using in the 1920s. There are significant differences in deterioration between early cars (1912-1920) and later heavyweights (early 20s to 1930), particularly in side sill areas.

Dining cars also suffer from "kitchen rot", where the floors in the kitchen and adjoining corridor are usually punky at best, and not there at all at worst. Lots of drips, steam leaks, water on the floors, all had years to soak in and do the damage.

Last but not least, heavyweights that were air conditioned in the 30s and 40s were known to "sweat" on the interior panels inside the walls. Insulation became soaked, did not dry out, and kept rusting the steel.

And, "Lion Gardiner" had two other problems: early in her Valley Railroad career, about 1972-73, the water system in the car was not properly drained after a late-season charter use, and the pipes froze and further soaked the car's interior. After that, VRR placed the car on what was called the "AMF siding", which was a heavily-treed jungle, where little sun could reach the car and dry it out.

Every time the car was coupled to and moved at Essex after that, more of it would fall off.

Could "L.G." be "saved"? Perhaps; it would be mostly a pattern now, I think. And we are talking about tremendous amounts of resources to do it. Don't think about doing anything with this car unless you have multiple tens of thousands of dollars; othewise you are wasting your time and money.

Howard P.

There was a lengthy discussion about this car 3 years ago: http://server.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3513&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&hilit=Lion+Gardiner

Our heavyweight diner was built in 1925 by Pullman. It was at the ragged edge of what is reasonable to restore. IMHO the Lion Gardiner is 10 times worse than that.

PSRM, in Campo, CA has 8 heavyweights. Regularly used are the Pullman private car "ROBERT PEARY" and the ATSF cafe-lounge #1509. Restored for display is ATSF RPO #74. For details on these and the other five heavyweights check the "passenger car" section of the "roster" at http://www.psrm.org

Thanks everyone for the posts and private messages. Please keep them coming. Several commonalities exist in what I've gathered:
1. There is a general lack of knowledge about what still exists and where, particularly where equipment is located off the beaten track
2. There is no early warning system to alert the preservation community of impending or potential impending losses that would enable a community of interest to gather around a car or cars before it was too late
3. Without a comprehensive, publicly accessible compilation of existing resources, even a semi-co-ordinated approach to a preservation "plan" is not possible. That is, we may each be saving a few of one type of car, whereas the very last of another type is lost unknowingly
4. When a car is lost, sufficient notice may not be given for the parts to be salvaged for the benefit of remaining cars.

I have in mind to create an interactive website where folks can post information and photos as they like. I don't just want to catalog what we have, I'd like to include information that would help to assess the car's significance and its condition. As railroad preservationists, could you suggest to me what fields I should include in a database to this end?
Sincerely,
Nathaniel Guest

What fields?

Builder, date, original and subsequent owners (and numbers/names), body type, lot and Plan number if Pullman, interior configuration ("72 coach seats", "36 Parlor chairs", "12 section-1 drawing room", etc), length, weight, number of axles, coupler type, brake type, any "special equipment", is it on active, connected track or isolated track, location (city, state).

Those would be some basic information items to identify a given car. Additional things such as "condition", could be added.

I seem to recall that there was a Reverend in the midwest who had complied a list of heavyweight Pullmans not long ago; his name and contact info escapes me at the moment.

Howard P.

Howard has a good list. To which I would only add "photo".

Les

How about a lightweight list too? I would be willing to start compiling a list of wooden cars.

Mike Pannell
Cheyenne

While it would miss a lot of stuff, the list of members equipment maintained by the Railroad Passenger Car Alliance would be a good starting point.

Here is an odd one - the Scarlet Lady:
http://www.desertgold.com/ptown/scarlady.html

Just noticed this thread, as linked from the existing Pullman heavyweight thread, and took note of the "Scarlet Lady." In my opinion, the story of this car is a tall tale. As to its origins, it looks a bit too young to be from the 1890s; her construction, including a channel side sill, the rivet patterns, and the small blanked windows over the main ones, suggest t a car of Santa Fe origin; see the now-gone Santa Fe cars in the other photos in the thread.

If I recall correctly the "Scarlet Lady" was a converted Santa Fe coach.

It was once part of a restaurant ("Sir Micheal's) in City of Commerce, Calif. My parents took we there to celebrate my 21st birthday -- that was way back in 1970!