Just wondering what different boiler water treatment & testing is being used out there. Also what limits do you try to stay within.

D.B.H

Try doing a search using water treatment. It has been discussed here many times.

DBH,

Another resource for you to review is the SmokStak forum.

http://www.smokstak.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=7

Search there for boiler treatment also.

Jim Conte is a resource and he regularly posts on SmokeStak. His web site is as follows.

http://www.boilersaver.com/

Regards,

Randy

Thank's for the info!

Dave

LSB400 properly used does an incredible job. EVERYONE that has had issues with it has not used it correctly.
Feel free to contact me for details...FYI, I am not an agent and get no compensation. Just a long time user.

J

I have worked in the steam business about all my working life. I just have a hard time with all in one boiler treatments especially when I don't know what is in them.
For twenty years of working in hospital boiler rooms we used Garrett Calahan for all our treatment & testing supplies & we were very happy with them. We tested water every day & kept a close eye out for any problems.
Dave Huffman

First, set up your testing program - start with the water that goes into the tender, then the water that is in the boiler. If you have an issue such as hardness, it can best be addressed before the water goes into the tender. Tailor the treatments to the results of your tests, adding no more of anything that is necessary to achieve good results, and nothing that is not necessary. Don't have testing done by the same people that sell you treatment products, or you will find everything requires more and more purchases of their product line. BTW, blowdown schedules are also set as a result of your test results. Test often, and adjust frequently accordingly.

dave

I have done water testing for a long time. I was a Boiler Tech in the Navy & did testing daily & then at the hospitals I did water testing & treatment on the week I was on day shift for over ten years.
Yes it is a great idea to get a outside test before you go with any chemical supplier.
We had one company say they were going to "save" us more than we were spending with Garrett Calahan. We had real good luck with them & they never tried to sell us anything we didn't need or have us over treat our water. They did come in once a month & test our water & make any recomend any changes we needed to make.
Dave

Here are the ABMA published recommendations:http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/feedwater-chemistry-limits-d_1064.html

Most commercial water treatment outfits nowadays are set up for treating softened and deaerated feedwater. Run of the stream, well water, or chlorinated municipal waters each have unique problems to be dealt with. Locomotives may or may not be using water from the same source all the time. Multiple sources may make for some complexities.

The major and overriding feature of steam locomotive water is the lack of deaeration, therefore feeding oxygen saturated water. The use of Sodium Sulfite is futile in this case. In order to feed enough to maintain a significant residual in the water, it is necessary to add so much that it becomes a major factor in the Total Dissolved Solids ( TDS ). This is a bad actor on two counts; The high TDS causes foaming and carryover. This is bad enough on a saturated engine, the carryover is likely transporting abrasive grit through the valves and cylinder. In a Superheat engine, it is carrying solids that become corrosive when dried inside superheater tubes, in addition to that abrasive grit. In order to keep the TDS and carryover under control, one ends up having to blow-down excessively. This wastes water, fuel, time and of course, the boiler treatment chemicals.

There has been a revolution in boiler water chemistry. The Navy, which standardized the Soda Ash and Corn Starch treatment 130 years ago, then progressed to Phosphate / pH coordinated chemistry, has now given that up. The new standard for conventional steam propelled MSTS ships, auxiliary boilers on ships of all types, Nuclear aircraft carriers and submarines is now, ta-da, a ONE SHOT.

So, here is what is in it:
1. A chelant - this chemically captures and holds ( sequesters ) calcium, magnesium and all loose oxides on solid base metal.

2. An Oxygen scavenger - yes, but not as strong as sulfite, and this is a minor role. The oxygen scavenger effect can easily be overpowered. Unlike EDTA chelant however, it does not go wildly agressive when exposed to oxygen, this is what gave chelants a bad reputation 30 to 40 years ago.

3. An organic filming protectant - This forms a two or three molecule thin film on clean base metal. This is not enough to insulate, instead, it promotes nucleate boiling, by enhancing surface water flow, so the steam bubbles get away without combining into film boiling. This nucleate boiling is the most efficient form of convection. Oh, yes, that film combines with Gamma Magnetite Hydroxide...

4. A Buffered Amine - this is formed with time and temperature, the organics beneficially decompose and form ammonia related compounds. This is great, because ammonia is a Base without being an Alkali.

What is the difference ? Bases form water solutions having a pH above 8.4. Alkali ( which is also a base ) also does this, but when boiled to dryness, leaves a white crystalline deposit. This is where riveted construction and stressed metals have a problem. The cement-like deposits get into micro-cracks in the stressed areas. This is Caustic Stress Corrosion Cracking. They accumulate and literally wedge the inter-granular micro cracks open wider. These cracks eventually become noticeable, but they are dangerous long before they become obvious. This is why we have an upper limit on Alkalinity, to reduce the tendency for alkali to concentrate in crevices.

Back to the Amine, it can be boiled to dryness, and the pH will not get above 10.4.
There will never be a concentration cell of high pH or a danger of caustic stress corrosion cracking. There is no need for the daily or multiple-times-daily boiler water testing when using this new chemistry. It is simply self-regulating, and will do the job as long as there is enough present to keep the scale forming minerals tied-up.

5. Gamma Magnetite Hydroxide - This is the protective film that is formed when steel is in contact with a chemically basic ( above pH 9.0 ) water in a steaming boiler. The dissolved oxygen level in these conditions is down in the 10 Parts Per Billion range, as opposed to the 8 Parts Per Million range for cold water around 60 F. The beneficial and tightly bonded and iron oxide ( Magnetite ) protects the base metal. As long as the proper conditions are maintained, the magnetite film will persist and continue to protect.

6. Blowdown control- Use a little hand-held battery powered TDS / Conductivity meter, like a $ 40 Hanna TDS-4. With the conventional chemistry, many boilers will start carrying over around 1,500 PPM TDS. With the modern chemistry, 3,500 is a good place to start, until the boiler gets cleaned-up and conditioned. After that, 7,000 PPM TDS is a good control point. Save water, fuel, time and treatment chemical. Point to remember, don't take a sample from a sightglass or water column drain. They are mostly condensed steam and not representative of what is in the boiler. A lower try-cock, directly connected to the boiler shell, is a better sample point for a true representative sample. Also, to not fry the meter, let the sample cool to 140 F or less. This will result in the loss of about 15% of the water, and the sample will be 15% more concentrated than what is in the boiler. Of course, the absolute neat peachy keno way is to use a stainless steel tubed sample cooler. I have yet to see one on a lokey, though.

As a dinosaur and old-fashioned steam-head, I wrestle with changes. This new boiler chemistry really does a great job. As a nuke submariner machinist's mate, and for years in industry and power plants, I did a lot of water testing. I mixed lots of phosphate, sulfite and EDTA. Most, or at least many, steam operations do not have a trained and dedicated water chemist. The absolute key ingredient is consistency.
Slap-dash- ' we'll throw some treatment in, if we remember ', is often worse than no treatment at all. Sadly, it is the norm rather than the exception. In the Real World, not the Ideal World, isn't it better for the average steam operator to simply add a quart of non-hazardous modern treatment when filling tender, or filling a boiler...and be done with it...rather than either mess around with chemical testing, figuring out the dose needed, mixing and adding the hazardous caustic chemicals or the slap-dash-maybe?

Leaving the best for last, here is where many boilers bite the dust...and Rust...

Improper Cold Layup - I already mentioned that cold water has about 200,000 times more dissolved oxygen than steaming water. Because of this, a boiler should Never be allowed to stand cold for more than a day or two. Yes, that old engineer's tale of steaming the water driving the oxygen out is true...the effect lasts until the boiler cools down and the steam condenses. A this point, the boiler goes into a partial vacuum and sucks in air...with 21% oxygen.

How to stop the damage ? Two main methods, either drain it, clean it and dry it...and Keep it Dry... Or Proper Wet Layup with a Nitrogen Blanket. This is Standard Operating Procedure in Industry and Utilities. Instead of letting the boiler go into a vacuum and draw in 21% oxygen, have a vacuum breaker and manual isolation valve at a high point above the water line. Have a 200 CF nitrogen cylinder from the welding supply, plus a regulator set at 25 psi as the first stage. The second regulator is a propane grill or RV regulator pre-set at 11 inches of water ( about 0.4 PSI ).

Connect using a flexible hose and a brass quick connection, The line into the boiler must slope downward as it approaches the boiler connection, so condensate doe not collect and block the hose. Also, a little silicone grease on the quick connect's " O " ring will help it live long and prosper. As the boiler is cooling down, but still has some pressure, connect and valve in the nitrogen supply and the manual valve on the boiler top. The check valve prevents anything more than a wisp of steam getting into the hose connection. When the boiler gets below 11 inches of water, the check valve lifts and nitrogen rather than air is admitted.

The nitrogen does not need to be kept on continuously, just until the boiler gets cool enough to touch and hold, about 140 F. It is best practice to turn on and purge the nitrogen for about 15 minutes a week. Steam operators who are doing this comment favorably, that it has stopped oxygen pitting and rusting, the boiler is ready to fire in 2 minutes ( the water is kept at normal level, high in the glass for firing ), and the water chemistry does not get depleted during nitrogen blanket layup.

Thanks for the great info! That is what I was looking for!!

DBH

We used nitrogen for wet layup on the Foster Wheeler 1275 Psi boilers on the USS Koelsch. We ran 1000*F superheat . Man that was a hot noisy place when we were running around 28 Knots with both boilers on line.

Dave

Like !

060 Hogger your end of post seems like it is a great solution for a boiler that needs to be ready on short notice and is going to be used many times a year, maybe monthly, and the bolier will be available to the owner to perform the weekly mntc. that is needed with your nitrogen plan.

What about a scale livesteamer that is going to operate thier boiler an average of 2-4 times a year, for 2-4 days at a time at their seasonal meets. That would make for a 2-4 month down time after each meet. Lets also say that our livesteamer has very limited time and very littel access to his boiler, that is stored out at the club track. What would you recomend for this guy who can only touch his boiler every couple of months?

Also, Is there a very long term storage plan, for the guys that fire up and run only once a year or even less? I know there are some of those guys, and I'm wondering what the best storage plan for their limited use would be.

Well in your case you would want to do a dry layup. After running the engine you should drain the boiler & dry it out with something like a hair dryer . I would find some desceant(sp) to put in the boiler to wick up any moisture that is left. Also store your locomotive in a dry place, heated would be good.
Hope this helps.

Dave Huffman