We're doing initial restoration work (meaning take it apart) on Coos Bay Lumber Co. #11, a 2-8-2T Minarets (ALCO, 1929). At the lower part of the back head, there is a valve that would take water out of the boiler. Immediately downstream from this valve is a tee, leading to two other valves. The discharge line from one side of the tee leads toward the rear of the locomotive, the other to the front. At the front, is another tee, with with a pipe ending near the flanges of each of the pilot wheels. Whatever piping was on the rear tee is missing, but we assume it would have gone to the trailing truck wheels. The pipes involved are rather small, 3/8 to 1/2 inch.

The question: What is the purpose of these pipes. Our guess is that the hot water would be used to melt accumulations of ice in the flange-ways at a road crossing or at a switch. Anyone agree with that? Or anyone have a better suggestion?

Coos Bay is on the southern Oregon coast; they do get snow there and a ways inland where the logging was done. As far as I know, the snow doesn't come in huge amounts, nor does it get as cold there as in the mid-west. (But lots colder than here in San Diego).

Thanks for any suggestions.

Jim Baker, PSRM, Campo, CA

I've only heard that set-up used for washing rail when sanding. Basically, on hard pulls, you're using lots of sand trying to keep things from slipping, but the very sand you're using to increase friction under your drive wheels is increasing the friction between all your load's wheels as well, slowing you even further. You'd just turn on the valve for which ever direction is trailing, and it blows the sand off the rails and gives it a bit of water lubrication too. I've seen this set-up on a few logging locomotives, just in the same fashion. If I remember right, even N&W 611 had a fancy setup for a rail washer using steam/boiler water that was right behind the rear drive wheel.
-Dave

I think this piping was intended to direct water on the leading wheels on the locomotive and was designed to water whichever end was leading. The water flow would serve to lubricate the flanges on sharp curves, reducing flange wear and friction, but would not tend to cause slipping as an oil-based flange lubrication system would. The water flow would also help cool the wheels during braking. The Shays at Cass are all similarly equipped, as were the Shays at the Graham County RR in North Carolina.

Thanks for the information.

I think that using the water for washing off sand, or other junk that might accumulate on a logging line sounds pretty reasonable. I don't think that 350 degree water from the boiler would do much to cool wheels.

Our SP 4-6-0 had water lines from the tender water tank to cool the tender's wheels, not hot boiler water. According to the old heads that used to run on our line, when running lite engine down hill, they'd tie down the hand brakes on the tender for their braking, so they didn't have to use the brakes on the drivers. The tender brakes would get pretty hot, so they used the tender water for cooling.

Certainly in the case of Graham County, the rail (or leading wheel) was kept wet to keep from having derailments, including on the so-called tangents. The rail was so badly kinked that on dry rail wheel flanges would ride up the side of the rail at a kink onto the rail head and derail, even at the very low speeds they ran. I seem to remember they had equipped the diesel with a watering system as well for the same reason. Once rail gets that badly kinked, it can no longer be lined into serviceable track. Talking to the crew at that time, they knew the only solution was all "new" rail, which was financially out of the question.

Peter: But did they use superheated water from the boiler,or ambient temperature water from the tender tank?

Jim

Having been employed as the final general manager of the Graham County Railroad in 1982 and 1983, I can attest to the atrocious rail conditions Peter notes above. I became quite proficient at rerailing locomotives and cars during my time in Robbinsville.

I can also attest to the efficacy of the rail-watering system as applied to three-truck Shay No. 1925. If one compares the sound of a locomotive or train rounding a sharp curve on a bright, sunny day to that same equipment taking the curve on a rainy day, the lubricating qualities of water become obvious. A trip up the mountain at Cass also demonstrates the use of water as a lubricant. When the engine is shoving its train, flange squeal is obvious, but when it pulls the train between the switchback switches, no noise is produced, even by the flanges of the last car.

On the other hand, I'm not so sure water at boiler temperature would be especially effective at melting ice from the flangeways or from switches. I've seen live steam employed to do that, but even hot water takes a long time unless the snow is very light and fluffy. And even hot water can help cool wheels and brake shoes by carrying the greater heat away as it evaporates.

Jim, if it was 360 deg. F water coming out the pipes, it wasn't water as soon as it could expand, i.e. immediately. A hot blast of expanding steam would certainly clean up the rail head and much ice. But the Oregon coast in winter even inland many miles, hard enough ice to derail, doubtful. But going through all that piping the water must have cooled some. Was it always an Oregon coast loco? Your web site seems to say so.

The NW Ry Museum has a few logging engines. I never looked at them close enough this summer to answer your question but ExDir Richard Anderson may be able to help. Of course, they have that wonderful logging Mallet next to their depot. It's closer to running again than most west coast rust buckets. My take, and others I have talked to is they don't/won't have the capability/expertise to make it run. You do. Compared to your not-to-pretty grandma, there's is a looker. Think about it Jim.

Marty Bernard at Orange Empire Ry Museum Again

PM 1225 has a rail washer operating behind the drivers. Since your 2-8-2T is bidirectional, it makes sense that there would be two valves and pipes. Our late engineman Joe Sigafoos maintained that it made a difference in the resistance of the trailing train, and used it continually, and wished the Diesels he ordinarily ran had one.

The 1225 also has a valve and rubber hose over both sides of each tender truck. The old PM men told us these were for cooling hot bearings under the tender, through a pipe-plugged hole in the side of each journal box. But I never understood why this should be necessary.

Aarne Frobom
Flaming Waste City, Michigan

Realize that this is a 30" park train, but the physics and chemistry does scale up to 56 1/2"...The homebrew Shay at Rough and Tumble has a Surface Blowdown to keep the boiler water Total Dissolved Solids under control and avoid foaming and carryover. The tubing leads to the left hand railhead. This has the flange loading on the outside of the curves on a circular track. The improvement in rolling friction is noticeable with this trickle of water.

Jim, what are your thoughts on constant blow down on locomotives??
Dave

Same as a ship, factory or power plant...it is the best way to control TDS.
See the graph curves sketched below.
Just like steam pressure and water level.
Railroading has enough shocks and surprises, without beating up the boiler ;-)

The 1702 had rail washers. I believe Greg added them due to the curvy railroad. The steam came off the turret and was dropped on each rail just behind #4 driver through a rubber sander nozzle. We would have them on when running forward to clear the sand and lubricate the rail for the trailing train. We would also run them drifting in reverse (diseasle pulling on the other end) to lubricate the flanges. She was also equipped with flange lubricators fed from the engine oil mech lubricator on #1 and #4 drivers.

722 would have ended up with the same if we had gotten that far.

May she steam again some day.

Ryan Scott

...I couldnt' see this being too effective on ice removal, as hot water will actually freeze quicker and smoother than cold due to the sped up evaporation process, particularly when applied to a surface that is already below the freezing point. It may be effective in turing snow/ice pack into slush, but you will then wind up with an even bigger problem in a very short time frame if all materials are not removed immediately from the area in question.

Ice Rinks use only HOT water in their resurfacing process for the very reason of its' quicker freeze.

Thanks, gentlemen, for all the comments. Looks like there is pretty much of a consensus that this water was used to wash sand off the rails, and possibly provide some lubrication. Certainly the coastal area of Oregon, where CB#11 spent its entire working life doesn't have much ice and snow as compared to most of the rest of the country, but it sure has a lot more than here in San Diego. I guess that is why we think of snow/ice melting stuff when it comes to equipment from other parts of the country.

I also like the suggestion of continuous blowdown. I'll have to try to remember that when (if) we get this engine running. It will be interesting to compare TDS numbers against periodic blowdown via the regular blowdown valves. However, I can see the possibility of these small pipes (3/8 to 1/2 inch) getting plugged up with some of the scale that will be coming off the stay bolts.

When we first ran our SP 4-6-0 in 1996, there was lots of scale that had built up of the stay bolts, that was not accessible for cleaning. The heating/cooling cycles of weekend only running caused lots of this stuff to fall off in the first year of operation. One day I even had to drop the fire (oil) because when blowing down, some scale caught in the blowdown valve, and I couldn't turn it off. Fortunately, this engine has a second valve that is operated from the ground downstream from the cab operated one. Got it shut off just as the water went out of the bottom of the glass.

Probably would be a good idea to blow down both ways, until all the old crap is gone.

thanks again for the help.

Jim.