Idle discussion topic: N&W made a few new, modern 0-8-0 switchers in 1953, one of which was the very last to drop N&W fires, and then scrapped them all? I am surprised not one was resold for service "somewhere". I am guessing none of these engines even ever had their flues replaced.

Steven -

The very last one built (number 244 maybe?) certainly deserved to be saved for posterity as the last steamer built for domestic service. Unfortunately she, nor any of her modern sisters, were preserved. A real shame.

Les

Considering who was the President of Norfolk & Western at the time (Stuart T. Saunders), it's amazing that any N&W steam survived. The N&W only donated 6 locomotives for preservation. The other 8 survivors were a matter of luck.

When did the N&W finally retire these units built in '53? I'm not familiar with the Norfolk and Western and being younger than some people here I find that interesting that the N&W would still be buying new steam during a time that dieselization was well under way. Were they a hold out against diesels?

I think the best answer is, they had a massive amount of stored parts for their modern power, they constructed much of it by themselves, and they burned what they hauled. I've read that N&W, prior to Stuart Saunders, felt they would be using steam big time, up until at least 1970, and probably beyond then. Given the cost of new Diesels at the time, why not make use of what they had in place, then buy Diesels only as need dictated?
Losing the last 0-8-0 is just another horror story in the race to "modernize".

crazy wild, remember they also experimented a steam turbine. O Winston Link may be solely responsible for saving 611 otherwise she would have been a scrap pile.

Remember the N&W held on to their 4-8-0's all the way up when they aquired the 0-8-0's, still having scrapped past 4-8-0's kept theirs as they preferred them over 0-8-0's. When the 0-8-0's came another round of 4-8-0 scrappings occurred, thats when the now famous lost engines situation started.

N&W still kept some 4-8-0's, but none survived after then. I'll recheck my book however.

Ironic isnt it.

As I recall reading somewhere, the coal traffic declined for both the N&W and for the PRR that controlled N&W. The PRR had diesels it was paying for that it could not utilize. So the PRR had the N&W lease these diesels. Thus the relatively new steam went into retirement.

Stuart Saunders and Al Pearlman, two leaders of Penn Central. Both should have gone to jail. Both were very anti preservation. Look at the roads that they were involved in, and how much of their history was preserved? Not many D&RG standard guage locomotives left. They fit right in with all the NYC stuff around.

The N&W applied modern thinking to their locomotive servicing and their availability was outstanding. (I think that the J's were averaging something like 19,000 miles/ month) They figured out a way to make them as efficient as possible and steam was able to put up a good showing in terms of costs vs the diesel. I have heard the argument that parts were going to be a problem, but like most things, if there is a market for it, someone will make it. Parts suppliers would most likely have been found to keep such a large fleet of locomotives in service. They were still in service up until a few years ago in Asia, so I don't see that as the great hurdle it was. The partial take over by the Pennsy is what drove the last nail in N&W steam.

I think the PRR is being over emphasized here. I don't remember the exact date but the PRR already had N&W stock as early as the 1890s, well before steam was dropped on the N&W. Once I get home I'll take a look at my Arrows (the publication of the N&W Historical Society) but I really don't think the PRR itself played a big part in dieselization.

The N&W also had it's own shops in Roanoke, Va. I'm sure if they were able to turn out a Y6b if needed they could turn out other small commercial parts. That's just a guess on my part but still.

Now Saunders on the other hand, that's a whole other can of worms!

The N&W wasn't buying new steam, they were building new steam. The fact that their motive power was produced in-house had a lot to do with their sticking with steam for so long.

As to the spare parts situation, I've read exactly the opposite. Remember that many parts, like the locomotives themselves, were produced in-house. However, the more modern the design of the engine, the more parts were produced by outside sources, like feedwater heaters, roller bearings, Baker valve gear, precision piston rings, etc. As other roads dropped steam, the market for these parts dried up and manufacturers stopped producing them. I read that the last batch of Y-6b's built were actually equipped with feedwater heaters one size smaller than what the designers wanted because Worthington was already ramping down production of steam accessories and declined to produce the desired units.

In the last years of steam, the cost of these outside replacement parts rose significantly as the N&W bought the remaining stocks. No doubt N&W could have produced just about anything in house, but this would have greatly increased the expense due to new tooling being required, licensing fees, etc.

Saunders must have been quite a character, and I don't mean that in a good way. He seems to have been practically psychotic in his disike of steam.

In the past, I to wondered why N&W would destroy steam locomotives that were only 5 years old.

I do not recall the article I read, but it went like this. N&W was very profitable and believed in burning what they hauled and because of having their own locomotive building capacity they were doing very well running steam locomotives.

N&W was looking to expand and the Virginian Railway was the target. N&W sought out advice from a major "Wallstreet" firm, which adviced them that while they were very profitable, they were viewed by investors as "outdated", because of their continued use of "dirty" steam locomotives. At the time, N&W stock was trading/valued at less than the Virginian Railway stock. They were advised to get rid of steam, which they did with the purchase of around 600 diesels very quickly. This brought about a dramatic change in their stock value. At the time of the take-over, N&W stock was worth about 25 to 35 percent more then the Virginian stock. This was a complete reversal of their respective stock values.

The PRR still had a very strong grip on the N&W right up until the early 1960s. The N&W's annual report was carried to Philadelphia and PRR headquarters, checked over, and printed on the PRR's printing presses. Given that, I think the decision to drop steam was motivated by a lot of other factors.

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By the late 1950s and early 1960s, the PRR and NYC were very sick financially. The PRR was able to hide this by using the profits of the very profitable N&W and funneling that money into the PRR's ledgers. The NYC had no coal-carrier subsidiary to hide its losses. Pearlman, while not popular with steam lovers, was probably a very good manager. He was famous for holding annual budget meetings, where he literally went through the entire NYCRR budget, line by line and had department heads and managers justify the expense.

While there is a good case Stuart Saunders should have gone to jail, it was for the whole Penn Central mess, not for scrapping steam. I see no reason Al Pearlman should have been imprisoned.

You have to realize railroad executives, then and now, owed a duty to the stockholders to maximize the investment, return a profit, and keep the company viable. There is no fidicuary duty on the part of railroad, or other executives to preserve machinery. I've heard the interview with O. Winston Link, where he stated he pleaded with stocholders to save a roundhouse full of modern N&W steam. They didn't. Stockholders are concerned with making money and keeping the value of their investment. It is what owning stock is for.

Pearlman in particular had a rather difficult job with the NYC, trying to stop the slide of the company, and its deteoriating financal situation as the industry and the world around it changed. He had many great ideas for trying to turn the NYC into a modern railroad. He was basically forced out of PC by Saunders and others for a whole plethora of reasons. I like the idea fronted in the book The Men Who Loved Trains that Pearlman wasn't part of the "good 'ole boy network" and corporate culture of the PRR/PC.

The railroad industry in the 1950s and 1960s was facing a sea of change. Steam, while pretty and neat, wasn't cutting it. Even "modern" N&W steam was very labor intensive. Think of the payroll for shop workers and the property tax bill for all of the steam-centric buildings. Diesel, while unloved by preservationists, was great from a business standpoint, even for a railroad that hauled mostly coal. Obviously, it worked for the N&W, to turn from a region-centric Class I to a large railroad that spanned the midwest and south.

The N&W and Southern always impressed me from the way they were managed and operated as companies. Both had a very good corporate image, even as the railroad industry was in trouble int he 1960s and 1970s. Keeping the stock price up, and acquiring the Virginian was a great move by the N&W, and allowed them to be in position to merge with the NKP, WAB and P&WV, becoming a very powerful transportation company. While we no longer hear thunder on Blue Ridge, Norfolk Southern, as a strong, financially viable transportation company is a worthy successor of the coal hauling railroad headquartered in Roanoke.

Please repeat until the message sinks in. In many folks' heads, it may never do so.

I remember discussing the 2005 plan to sell off the London brewing estate of the Young's brewery, the Ram Brewery, which by then was one of the oldest breweries in the world at one location (since the 1550s), with the CEO of the company over some pints of cask-conditioned Double Chocolate Stout during his visit to Baltimore. He was succinct with his point: "I would like nothing better to preserve that place as a museum and monument to the rich tradition of brewing in Britain, but I have a fiduciary responsibility to the shareholders of the company. The real estate is now worth more than the company, and if we don't move the brewery and sell the property, I can be sued by our shareholders. They could sue the bejezus out of me, and they'd win."

Young's Double Chocolate Stout, mmmmmmm.

Back to steam... ;-)

While having the 611, 1218, 475, and other steamers around is very nice. The real monument to those who built the N&W and its locomotives is that fact that you can sill go to Roanoke, stand on the pedestrian bridge over the tracks and watch the never-ending parade of coal, intermodal and mixed freight traffic pass underneath. NS is still a very viable company, largely due to the foundation laid by former managers and executives in the 1950s.

The lasting legacy of the American Railroad network is that it still exists, moving freight and making money, providing jobs, providing transportation, and making the investors (mostly) happy.