And it's SELF-PROCLAIMED know-it-all's who drive people off of these boards and keep them from entering into discussions.

"Wait and see" is fine, as is "plot out alternatives"--which is what a couple of us fans did over lunch today (one proposal: over the Arizona & California to Matthie, up the "Peavine" to Williams Junction, a hop on the BNSF to Albuquerque, over Raton Pass.....). And, yes, two of those at the table are re-thinking their plans to go to Rock Island on the news of a lack of 3751 ("Well, there's still the Chinese 2-10-2's.....")

But ideas like:

deserve to be taken out behind the woodshed and beaten as the bad ideas they are, especially when the publicly stated reason for BNSF's rejection of the original proposal centers on freight traffic congestion concerns.
There are other internet rail forums that thrive on wanton speculation of the "just convert it to burn coal instead of oil" or "just borrow coaches from Amtrak" type.

I think that in this case it's between a rock and a hard place and there are no quick fixes.... really stuck between the timeframe you need to advertise the event and the timeframe it takes to get a final, formal, response from a Class 1 here.

That being said...other than just sympathy....

You can't just savage BNSF, because there have been some special moves, even recently, that would indicate that in the right situations they still seem to pull it off. Case in point (and this link was from THEIR website, so yes, they are taking pride and personal ownership in it):

http://www.ktvz.com/news/26085100/detail.html

But it's plain (to me anyway) that you need to include a cause bigger than yourself and your vintage hardware to make it work here if you study their own media and press moves. Nothing against rail history, or our own passions, I'm just saying that every company has the public image they are trying to build, and you have to see if there's any way you can help them further it, even if you don't necessarily understand why they don't see it your way.

In that case I found it slightly ironic that BNSF was saying the only reason the event wasn't bigger was because they had capacity issues with the TRAIN, not the railroad. Reading between the lines, can anybody help them with Amtrak-qualified coach capacity in certain areas?

Reasonably intelligent brainstorming is likely the only way around a bad situation like this one. We've lost so much of the rail network that capacity will always be a problem in even a mediocre economy. (Yes, yes, I know how many trains used to run in such and such a space. I also know there are good reasons why that can't happen again, starting with the accident rate they had back in the Golden Age.) The recent heavy rains in California and AZ may limit options even more if extensive repairs are needed.

Some of the people who are suggesting freight moves and such aren't familiar with the fuel and water supply problems involved. They're possible, but not fun to arrange. There also seems to be a general lack of understanding about the ability to push a steam engine long distances cold in consist. It's possible, yes, but it involves a good deal of work on both ends of the trip.

Honest to John, with the Port of Los Angeles on one end and Rock Island on the other, it might be easier and even cheaper to put her on a barge and make the run by water, except that doing so would remove any chance of getting passenger revenue to support the trip. On the bright side, there'd be no problem with pace lines. Boat chasing is about ten miles an hour. IIRC, it would take at least three weeks to make the move that way and I have NO idea what it would cost.

There's a lot to be said for little engines that can run themselves up on flatbeds and travel where they need to go by road or behind diesels.

I didnt give the idea loosely or to be expected to be thrown behind a woodpile beaten down.

Its a brainstorm idea to solve an issue, if you can't create a train for the railroad to run, you run the engine to Railfest within the railroads own needs. 765 has hauled real freight in its own tests and post restoration operations, so my idea I gave didn't come without some quick thinking. Please give another solution Alexander than a beatdown.

Cheers.

..edit..

and I did write the CSX directly about why they would not move that one engine 10 miles to the other train festival a while back, it pretty much was about an "antique" locomotive. I believe today's railroads are actually busier than before on the mainlines, why they can't move excursions around as much anymore, but if NS can work it in, other railroads might get persuaded, but its a lot about politics as well within the company. I own BNSF stock (now Berkshire Hathaway) and the main man there is pro railroad or he would not had aquired the line, so maybe a letter to him is a postive step, but to run these excursions is plenty of intinerary behind them to make them work. But there is the simple dream underlying it all, to get the 3751 to the railfest.

overNout

This thing might not be over yet. We have not just one problem here...we have several. With deference to the BNSF and the 3751 crews,this is the situation...we need to get 500 tons of 4-8-4 two thousand miles east and two thousand miles west. If 3751 is to participate,then we need to get her there NOW, while track capacity is not an issue. We have no time to get cars there for her to make a great deal of money to defray the cost,so here are some options....

1. Ferry 3751 on the Southwest Chief as far east as possible,perhaps running her all the way through to Kansas City before cutting her off for a day,then continuing on to Rock Island. Water and fuel can be arranged pretty quickly if you do your homework and get support from the BNSF.

2. To do this scenario,you need qualified crews. I can get on the phone right now and get two BNSF steam qualified engineers on the phone that might be interested in assisting. You know who they are. Them plus the 3751 crew should be sufficient to handle the running. Servicing can also be handled the same way.

3. There might be room for two,maybe three private cars to help bring in extra revenue.

4. This also represents an opportunity that has not been available in the United States since the 1950's...the ability to ride overnight behind scheduled steam.

Ambitious? Yes. Money maker? Most likely not,unless Amtrak and BNSF chip in to make it happen. Will it get the 3751 to Rock Island? No doubt about it.

Even if such a scenario could be worked out (which I think could be), it would still be one hell of an event both ways. Just my opinion. Your mileage or the questioning of my sanity may vary

now that's a positive hopeful post. to God;s ear sir!

I like your optimism. But once again, as a "been there, ridden that" character, I'll ask a valid question, the very first one Amtrak will ask:

The Southwest Chief runs across much of its route at speeds of up to 90 miles per hour, including sustained long stretches of 80+ mph across Arizona and New Mexico (and I think Kansas and Colorado). Is 3751 and the rolling stock proposed for this movement certified for that sustained high-speed running?

That kind of speed for that long *is* kind of flogging her, and we're back to fuel and water supply and not taking much time for it. Cutting her in and out of the Chief's consist for service would be too time-consuming. I keep looking for shorter runs somehow and haven't come up with anything good. There should be a way to do this. I just can't think of how at the moment.

I do agree that if she's going, it's going to have to be an early, off-peak trip out and a late, off-peak trip back, and she's going to have to have a museum or other secure location as a temporary home relatively near Rock Island so the crew doesn't have to stay with her 24/7.

Trust me....she is more than capable....

I agree that the goal here is to get the engine to Rock Island before next July at a cost that is within the realm of reason. That is why I suggested pursuing a cold, main rods off move as part of a regular freight train(s). I'm not talking about a 70 mph intermodal move. I'm suggesting that a series of moves on whatever is the BNSF equivalent of district switcher runs, or low priority freights that do a lot work from one yard to the next. Runs that wouldn't subject the engine to hundreds of miles of high speed running between opportunities to inspect it. It needs to go on trains that can be restricted to 40-50 mph without it being a major operational burden. It needs to be in a situation that allows for the tool car and accompanying personnel to travel with the engine - riding the trailing unit of the regular engine consist if necessary. They need to be able to have a support vehicle following along to chase parts and make any needed arrangements. And, they probably need to plan on two weeks of broken moves to accomplish the trip each way. Think of this like the move of a dimensional/clearance implicated load, like a transformer. It's a specialized piece of equipment with accompanying personnel and their own support car. They have restrictions on how fast they can move, pass other trains, or clear things like protruding rock formations. They may have to move as a special train at times, or wait for a lower priority mixed freight train to handle them. I've had trains with loads like that. Railroads move them all the time, granted for a premium price. Usually, the train takes longer to get from A to B, and may take extra crews to do it. We're also probably talking about a trailing tonnage restriction on the engine and any tool car. The groups involved are approaching the railroad hat-in-hand, which is all the more reason to come up with a way to move it that causes the least trouble for BNSF.

As for what to do with it in the Rock Island area, where does IAIS keep the QJ's? That would be the logical place to put it. I imagine there would be facilities and assistance there to put the rods back on and get it ready to run. Then it could arrive in Rock Island with the QJ's as a triple-header, or the rear helper on another record steam freight tonnage run! (There is precedent for that. The WM used NKP 759 in helper service out of Hagerstown in either '69 or '70, I've seen movies of it - Mr. Rowland help me out here.)

when the Milwaukee Hiawatha ran at speeds over 120 mph with its 4-4-2's, I would think the 3751 could handle half that speed easy. The freight move idea sounds smart.

4449 was built for the larger west coast rail lines clearances and it could not run into Chicago Union Station, so the train ran in, while 4449 took a circuitous route meeting back with the train later. That was an on the fly situation. The railroad was aware and worked with it.

I'm still back to the issue here of how this can be done where it fits in with what BNSF is trying to do and typically does for special moves. Look at the website. See what they are doing.

Charity runs. Special events. Goodwill. If you're going to approach them on moving this thing, what can it do for them? It's going to draw the press, and crowds trackside, how do you make it worth it for them? What events are in communities along the route, coming up, that BNSF and 3751 could highlight? This year it's been all about breast cancer awareness in many ways and a lot of railroads and organizations have jumped on that; I'm not saying that's the focus here, I'm saying that taking a shot at working WITH their media group here has to be better than some of the other alternatives here.

If they are willing to haul the BNSF executive fleet all the way to Oregon for a Christmas Santa train for military families, that should say something. And that one was gratis - on the house -in exchange for what you have to admit was a VERY nice TV news story, first rate. That exercise was not cheap, or easy.

When 3751 made the last run across the transcon, wasn't it an "Employees Appreciation Special"? 1992? While it might be great to be able to sell this as an historic excursion, that probably won't get it moved on its own merits. Maybe another approach would, maybe not.

Nope: The 2002 NRHS National Convention in Williams, Arizona--out via the Transcon, back via BNSF Williams-Phoenix "Peavine" and west over the Arizona & California from Matthie (the so-called "Parker-Peavine" route).

Transformer moves were what I was thinking of--extreme weight, special move. It's also why I thought of water transport, because heavy moves are common on the river. I wasn't aware that they come with a support staff; you make a good point. Any idea of the cost of such a move?

The issue of dropping the main rods was what I was thinking of as a potential obstacle if the move took place too close to the event. How long does it take to remove and replace them?

As for a QJ-QJ-3751 tripleheader, it'd be hard to beat that either from a railfan viewpoint or from the POV of a RR trying to have the minimum number of special trains to handle. Having her go to IAIS would also help with maintenance since they're equipped to deal with steam.

Is there a chance of arranging further short excursions once she's in place to defray some of the expenses? 4449 did that at Owosso. Once again, though, it would take having her crew camped out in the Midwest for a while.