Heres my two cents...for what its worth.....and perhaps a little bluntly...
1: Every railroad I've worked on/with,etc keeps a quantity of rail on hand for repairs,construction,etc. Better to have it than to need it!
2: Based on the "value" of $6k, you might be able to pay for a couple of trucks, or maybe some crane time.....I'm not sure of the current value of 3ft trucks, but standard gauge passenger car trucks run in the $10k/each range.
Value estimates at $800/ton are pretty high, thus unlikely to be correct......
3: Getting your engine running again is a good thing, but, There are other ways to get money.......Ya'll seem to be fixed on getting "quick" cash no matter what.....thats a dangerous path to go down for any operation. As well, you seem doubtful about ever doing much else......Are you really dedicated to making this happen, or is this just play time?
4: Don't get me started on Edwards cars.....restoring one will be more like $100's of thousands...trust me......you're looking at at least $100K to make a set of correct trucks for it. I'm assuming you have none since you say its up on blocks.....
The last one I was involved with cost better than $300K, for a reasonably complete model 10, you're looking at $500K or more for a larger car, plus is it a 3ft gauge?........
5: As others on here have said.....you were given that rail.....the railroad probably took a tax write off.....As well,alot of people get upset when the museum operation they donated material/equipment,etc to scraps the stuff.....Unless you don't plan to get more donations from them, I wouldn't scrap it just yet....
Please, don't take what I've said the wrong way.......I've seen very similar situations several times before......
Here's my questions:
How have you raised money in the past? do you work only from donations? have you tried selling things like t-shirts, coffee cups or other trinkets?
What Edwards car do you have? I still know a few people that might be able to help you with it.....

What is the rail size for your track that you are currently operating on? Is it all the same size or do you have different sizes in different areas? Is the 70# rail larger or smaller than that? What are the lengths of the rails? Are they all the same length or random? Do you have a supply of repair rail to use for change outs due to broken/flawed rails? Even if there were no joint bars with this rail, you could use the existing joint bars and tie plates for rail change outs. This would only work if it was also the same rail section. If you do not have this size rail in track, then you might be able to trade it with a rail broker or other organizations to get some rail that you may need for repair rail. The only way that I would sell rail for scrap is if it had significant head wear or base corrosion. I would definitely inspect the rail before making any decisions.

Ed Ripp

Matt -

Since you seem to be looking for a consensus of opinions here, I would say don't sell the rail for scrap. Find another way to raise funds. There are certainly many ways to do this. And having rail on hand could come in handy down the road. As an example, we once had a pair of freight car trucks sitting around on the property. In an effort to raise funds, our Board decided to scrap them. Recently, we decided to convert one of our flat cars to an open car for riders. Unfortunately, the car first talked about had a set of outlawed trucks. If we had had those old freight car trucks on hand, it might have tipped the scales in favor of using that particular car. But unfortunately, the trucks were gone. A short sighted decision on our part. Don't make a similar mistake.

Les

When I said UP TO $800/ton, it was the salesman in me talking.
I was recently quoted figures in that range for #1 relay 60#.
DO NOT scrap the rail, sell it for reuse. As others have said, it is rare. Bars are not a problem as new bars are actually available, at a price.

IMHO for 2 cents.

Ira Schreiber

I appreciate all the responses. I don't particularly appreciate the "y'all seem bent on getting quick cash" or "are you just playing" remarks, especially given the back and forth and attempt to weigh the pros and cons of this particular situation.

I must admit that I am surprised how valuable the 70-lb rail is in the preservation community, but to me the most interesting point (especially given the number of deacession discussions on RYPN) is how many view this rail in terms of our collection's usable rail assets.

Again, we have 300-feet of track, just laid and not filled up. This donation is another 1000 feet of track and while valuable and usable, is just something else to lay around for some time and grow weeds at its rusty perimeter and contribute to the junk-pile appearance that many on this list lament. Do we have long term plans to expand? Of course. But we need to finish some short term projects to get to the long term.

To answer some of your questions:

a) We normally have a budget of $4k-$6k which is generated by our annual NC Railroad Expos in April and October.

b) To supplement these funds and some local business donations, we have received two NRHS Heritage grants in the past 4 years, as well as grants from our patron railroad, the Alexander Railroad, as well as assistance from the NJMT.

c) We have an agreement with the Newton, NC Depot Authority to house our equipment under a covered carbarn. We are VERY fortunate to get this, as much as our equipment is wooden, and they operate from a very different funding/grant/rent business model.

d) We have 3 narrow gauge boxcars (1870's Chester & Lenoir, 1910's ET&WNC, 1900's Lawndale), narrow gauge ET&WNC #1, and a smidgeon of other other std gauge equipment. Our focus is on collecting and restoring the narrow gauge component of the collection, and as our updates on this board have shown, we have literally brought most of this equipment back from the dead over the past 3 years (that's where that "playing" remark chaffs me)

e) Our Edwards car is Yadkin #100, a 1924 Model M-10. Yes, we understand it will be a LOT of $$ to restore, and it is standard gauge, but dammit, it is far too rare a gem to let continue to waste away. Frankly, we are pursuing some other larger benefactors to assist in this project (FYI, it is the only gas-electric car left with a Norfolk Southern heritage).

Hope this answers some more questions, and again, thanks to everybody for your comments. Most of them anyway.... :>)

Matt

. How is this different than any other donation to a museum that deaccessions non-critical items and swaps its value to something more inline with the core collection. How is it any different than a cash donation?

Again, fair question. That's why we are seeking informed opinions.

Thanks!

Matt[/quote]


To my understanding, the difference is that the your first statement says that the donation is a current offer. Usually deaccessions occur when a museum has redirected the focus of it's collection, changed its mission statement, or realized it could not maintain the number of items in its care. If one realized that when the donations was made, then I don't think the donation should be accepted in the first place, unless the donor was fully aware that the donation was going to be turned into cash. In this particular case the items have value for historical purposes that go beyond their scrap value. To me that would be similar to a museum in the 1950's accepting the donation of a steam locomotive and then turning around to scrap it because they had several others,and could use the cash. The intent of the donor I believe is the critical. factor here.

An important consideration, not just for this particular situation but for any similar ones:

ALWAYS be certain that any donors or prospective donors are aware of the realistic possibilities for their donations. If they want to give you five identical freight cars, be sure they are aware that you might scrap two for parts and trade a third and fourth for other cars, but keep the best restored to original condition with their company name prominent on it. If they offer a prefabricated building, ask if it's OK if you trade it with someone for a longer, narrower building. They offer you a passenger car, and the only good things left are the trucks? Don't give them hopes that it'll be restored to original condition and named for their company or father; tell them it's a parts source. There are times when the donors don't give the proverbial fig or rat's posterior as long as the transaction's on the books and/or the stuff'soff the property by the end of the fiscal/calendar year; there are other times when the torch burns into what was supposed to be "a memorial to" some benefactor or the like.

In this case, I have an idea who the donor may be, and it's likely they won't care that much. But it's probably not worth the time for a for-profit company to hash out a return on a trailerload of "old, unusable" rail; that's properly the "job" of rail preservationists.

I'm somehow reminded of the time a local radio show host, who did a car-repair show similar to "Car Talk", fielded a call from a "little old lady" who wanted to know if she should donate her garage-kept 1965 Cadillac to a charity or scrap it.. The host spent several minutes desperately trying to convince her that collectors would happily give her four or even five figures for her car, and to put it up for sale with a broker and donate the proceeds to charity if she so chose.

Matt I would not scrap the rail sell for relay or a trade.East Carolina Chapt Bonsal has 70lb on mainline.If you decide to scrap find out what type of documents the scrap yard needs TT&E Raleigh will not take rail scrap unless you have paper trail of sell or donation back to a railroad.Had some old tie plates once dad was taking a load of scrap he threw them in and they call railroad police on him.
Alan Ashworth

Matt,
Sorry about the quick cash/playing thing...... The point I'm trying to make is that turning really any donation around for cash, unless planned as such from the start is usually a mistake. I have seen this sort of thing happen before.....
As well, I have seen situations happen where, for example: An NRHS group disposes of their equipment because no one wants to work on it anymore....most of the members are older people and they like to hang out at their museum, talk trains, etc.... They aren't willing to do anything beyond that. they can't keep younger members interested and then something happens, or they just decide to sell off their equipment for the cash.......
I'm sure ya'll are working very hard to improve on what you have and its condition....and it sounds like you don't have the same problems some of those groups above had.
So, you have a model 10.... you sure its a gas electric? Edwards, to my knowledge, did only mechanical cars....see attached photos...... Note the engine cover and the very different style trucks........ This model 10 is powered by a small block chevy ( not what I would choose).....uses an automatic, a turbo 350 trans( if I remember right)......The car came to us with that drive train, originally it would have used a Buda with manual trans. Reverse operation is thru a special reversing box, similar to a fairmont speeder's reverse gear box, but about 4 times bigger.

I'm curious about this too...If it is a gas-electric it is indeed quite rare. Certainly the majority of Edwards cars were mechanical-drive to the best of my knowledge.

As to the advisability of scrapping the rail...I'd echo what others have said. It's probably worth more as 70# rail than as steel scrap. Even if you do decide to scrap it, try to avoid cutting it up. I've had some experience in scrapping (mostly old farm and construction equipment) and quickly learned not to do any more cutting than was absolutely necessary to move or transport the stuff. With the price of oxygen and acetylene, the cost of the gas quickly ate up any extra profit from having smaller pieces.

First, my bad, our Edwards car is indeed a gas-mechanical, not gas-electric. Got a little too hasty in my typing.

You can see our humble one here at http://www.tarheelpress.com/yadkin100/

Secondly, Sandy is correct in that our rail donor really wouldn't care what we do, but the points about letting ANY donor know the possibilities of their item(s) are well taken.

And lastly, lest we get beaten by those spike mauls, you guys have definitely educated me in that the best manner of liquidation would be by trade or sale to a preservation-oriented group, as opposed to a scrapper. While cash would be nice, we have no deadline for funds and there is no real rush to convert the rail to such. I would of course rather this material go to a brethren organization than to make Chinese razor blades.

Thanks for the discussion, points, and counter-points!

Matt

Matt, you have vetted this well and taken, IMHO, the proper course.
Good luck.

Ira Schreiber

Do you know what a PITA it is to cut up 50 lengths of rail?

Matt,

Here's one more perspective for you.

You do what you have to, to survive. We've sold donated materials before to raise cash, seldom because we wanted to, but often because we had to. Sometimes those who donated knew, and sometimes they didn't. Sometimes we accept donations for the core collection, and other times we accept them to re-sell and utilize the funds for other preservation efforts. We DO NOT mislead anyone who is donating as to our plans for their donation -- but plans can and do change, generally based on need.

We've never had good luck being handed large chunks of money and creditors are seldom patient. From what I'm gleaning here many groups have large endowments or wealthy benefactors and hence can sit on unneeded items until they are in fact needed or have rotten to the point of being unusable (waiting for them to hatch?). Or just give them away because they are nice folks without need of money.

As far as your rail goes, should you choose to sell it, try a local track contractor. We usually work with ours to dispose of scrap/surplus rail. Currently, the value is trending higher -- we can get $300 to $350 locally and $50 higher in Birmingham per long ton (2250#), and in full rail lengths. The all time high for scrap rail was right around $900 per ton here locally around two years ago. Relay rail is an entirely different animal. It's price will vary with section and demand. We've recently paid in the $600 to $700 per 39" stick of #1 100RE (roughly 1300#). I will say this, with the economy slowly re-bounding, I would wait until you actually needed the $$$ to sell it. The price has risen steadily over the last nine months and waiting may well net you more in the long run.

And finally, best of luck with you efforts. Narrow Gage and wooden cars are a sorely neglected aspect of Southeastern Railroad preservation. Glad to see someone pick up the cause and run with it.

you had me wondering about the rail car, NS had some Gas Mechanicals, but they operated poorly and converted them to Gas Electric, I think some had trolley poles to run under trolley power also. Very interesting operation NS did, technically running an interurban line also. Not sure if any survived.