Looks like the C&O Heritage Center has some plans in the works
for their Museum though I had to look around a bit on the Web
to relocate the design plan - note "New entrance" and "Locomo-
tive" - Wonder if that will be #614?

If so, strange to see it outside but will proper care I suppose
she'll be kept in good shape (assuming hunch). Course, it
could be a completely different engine.

http://www.candoheritage.org/images/hccf_siteplan.jpg

http://www.candoheritage.org/

In my mind, I like to believe the engine is simply one step
literally closer to operating on Ross's planned Greenbrier
Express. Of course, again, that's just on my mind and an
appealing thought, no more.

/Mitch

Train Crew Wrote:
1218 is mostly a shell. When it was in the steam shop in Birmingham at the time N&S shut down the steam program 1218 was cosmeticaly restored. That means there were a lot of eqt. missing internally. If you look in the tender you will see the boiler grates laying there. Also part of the stoker auger is lying in the tender. All of the steam parts were sold for scrap. 1218 will never be functional again. Now J611 was pulled into the yard and the fire was let to cool down. That would be the only one that could rise out of the ashes. Now 614 would be a good one to rebuild. Ross has kept it maintained since it was shut down.. I don't believe that there is lot of what I would call major to do for that engine.

Others write that 1218's steam parts are stored inside the boiler, itself. It's rather difficult to imagine NS being so cavaliar, as to sell her parts as junk.

Here's an interesting old TRAINORDERS thread with pics of the inside of #1218's firebox AND the inside of the tender. I'm not well-versed enough in steam anatomy to know what the parts in the tender are-- the thread says some or all of it is grates.

http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/r ... 260,page=1

My research indicates there were brand new flues cut for #1218 that got scrapped, and apparently there were some newly-rebuilt appliances that were sold at the going-out-of-business auction.

A 614 update via facebook:

Well at least we know a more tentative date...

Why is it that everyone thinks the fact that 1218 is just a "shell" that it can never run again? Any engine being restored has to be totally disassembled to a "shell" during the restoration process anyway. I'm not sure what "steam" parts you think there are internally, but a boiler holds tubes, water and air and that's really about it and the missing tubes are a wear item that get replaced every 15 years (or sooner) anyway. There were some appliances sold at auction, but none of which are non-replaceable. I'm not certain what is missing from 1218, but nothing is a show stopper. Who cares if the grates and stoker parts are in the tender. They would all have to be removed and/or replaced anyway.

Now think about this...611 was in due for an overhaul at the end of her last season. She was run hard for a dozen years pulling trains heavier than she was ever designed to pull. 1218 on the other hand was in the wrap-up stages of a lenghty overhaul at the end of 1994. I'm not doubting that 611 is a better candidate for restoration, but I'd be willing to bet that if you really got into it, you may find that 1218 is in in better overall mechanical condition than 611 or at least not that far behind.

1522 Also did some runs on NS

I helped reassemble 1218 for display back in 2003, so I'm reasonably familiar with the beast. Steamguy is right in that there is nothing there that is a show stopper, on the other hand the restoration was not as far along as supposed. Much running gear work was done, but there is a lot left to do, including installing some of the new pistons, valves, and bushings. The boiler was in the midst of a major overhaul, and the "new" firebox is held in with regualar bolts and a few stays. All new staybolts need to be made and fitted, along with a new mudring, flues, and superheater assemblies. Plus of course the currently required Form 4 calculations (easy to do an ultrasound right now).

611 received a fairly thorough shopping sometime around 1990 or 1991, and was out of service for one season, so she is not as "worn out" as purported. Per conversations with former NS Steam Crew members, the bottom line money wise is that finishing 1218 would probably cost around twice as much as putting 611 back in service. Bear in mind that a big chunk of this difference would be in the cost of the components needed to be replaced (staybolts, flues, etc). 1218 supposedly cost $1 million to restore in 1987 dollars. The comparable cost today would probably be less

Thanks for the clarification Gary. I guess my way of thinking wasn't based so much on cost as much as overall condition. In other words, with 611 you never know what will be found when you tear it down. I've often heard that with steam restoration you can estimate the rebuild cost and then multiply that number by 3 and you will be closer to the actual cost. With 1218 I'm thinking most of those "unknowns" are probably known. Take the firebox for example. Perhaps an ultrasound would reveal 611 to need major firebox work or replacement whereas 1218 has a new firebox largely in place ready for staybolts, etc. Gary and former NS steam employees would certainly know best, I'm just pointing out my way of thinking.

Back to my original point there seems to be a huge misconception that 1218 was only partially re-assembled and was inoperable when sent to the museum therefore it's in poor/non-restorable condition whereas 611 steamed herself to the museum so just add fire and water and it would be ready to go. Nothing could be further from the truth on either.

If nothing else, from an operations perspective, 1218 would be more flexible than 611, more able to negotiate curves and switches 611 could not manage.

But, 1218 is too slow to run at track speed with the GG1 on the NEC. 611 can go even faster......

dave

If you turned her loose, Dave, she could still do track speed with 20+ passenger cars just about anywhere on NS. On the other hand with 611, maybe we could head up to the Northeast corridor and see what we could do about the the "Mallard"'s speed record....it's about time we got that back from the Brits...................:)

From C&O "Yahoo" group, per Ross Rowland's Facebook page, 614 left Port Clinton at 6:45 pm tonight.......

Since I'm not partaking of whatever the h--- Brothers Gray and "Dave" are/were obviously smoking or drinking, let me interject on behalf of "noobs" that may blunder upon these words and accept them as "gospel":

"Just about anywhere on NS" is flat-out (pun intended) wrong. I will remind Brother Gray about the permanent speed limit imposed by NS on 611: authorized track speed on tangents; 10 mph below any speed restrictions or speed limits on curves. This was instituted because N&W J's had an extraordinarily high center of gravity (77 inches above the rail empty, lower when full and loaded with fuel), about 18-20 inches higher than your normal SD40-2 as I recall, which was originally compensated for in N&W steam/passenger days with super-elevated curves. The superelevation was done away with in the decade(s) between 1957/1971 and 1982. Railfan & Railroad detailed this subject in-depth sometime in the 1980s, with an example demonstrating the hazard: the derailment of 611 herself in January 1956 after she hit a curve at too high a speed, flipping entirely over the adjacent track and down the embankment along the Tug Fork of the Big Sandy River: http://home.comcast.net/~hoboron/test/icc-report.htm

Long story short: Neither 611 nor 1218 was built with Pendolino, Talgo or Acela tilt mechanisms.

On the other hand, we did run some numbers one time back in the 1980s as a joke, calculating whether 611 could have broken the LNER record given the Northeast Corridor or the test track at Pueblo, Colorado. What we came up with was that the RPM of a N&W J's 70-inch drivers at the alleged 110 mph (the purported record of a J on the PRR in tests) is within a couple RPM (literally single digits) of the RPM of an 80-inch-drivered LNER A4 at the dynamometer-confirmed 126 mph record........ I think we came up with 125.2 mph for an 80-inch-drivered J at the same RPM.........

If someone really wants to reclaim the steam speed record for the States, I would start with an 80-inch-drivered locomotive such as SP 4449 or AT&SF 3751.......... oh, and a certified speed measurement system. On the other hand, I think both of those locos are too high to operate under the Amtrak catenary safely, so....... back to the fire barrel, hand me another beer..........

Down Sandy........I was merely responding to sarcasm with facetiousness...........

of course, Class J's were balanced for a "wheelslip speed" equivalent of 130mph.........(running for cover.......:)...........)