Tornado Boiler

Robby Peartree · **Joined:** Wed Aug 25, 2004 11:16 am **Posts:** 767

Hi All,

The issues facing the Tornado are of great interest to many of us. The A1 trust undertook a great endeavor in constructing the Tornado. They have a plan of action to address the problem to meet their needs. I suggest we give them time. I again, want to commend them for keeping those interested in there project informed which seems, unfortunately, more than many can do on this side of the Atlantic.

To this end I suggest we follow the code of ethics of the ASME which each committee member has to sign a pledge to uphold. I understand from the ASME that “Members of ASME Committees agree to comply with Society Policies P-15.7 Ethics, P-15.8 Conflicts of Interest, P-15.9 Policy Against Discrimination (including Discriminatory Harassment) and P-14.6 Society Name, Seal, Emblem, Initials, Titles, Identification, and Certificates. ASME Society Policies are available on ASME’s web site (http://www.asme.org/asme/policies).”

To that end we should not try to direct the direction of attention to suit our needs or agendas. We do not have first hand knowledge of their findings and there fore should not even suggest to eliminate certain paths of possible investigation because of personal agenda.

Respectfully,
Robby Peartree

M Austin · **Joined:** Sat Feb 05, 2005 1:05 am **Posts:** 488

Seems a review of the Henschel Data on Firebox material is appropriate.

whodom · **Posted:** Sun Jan 23, 2011 5:19 pm

Matt- I'm familiar with Tross (BTH) staybolts, and use of these would appear to be a big step in the right direction to prevent future/further problems, but what exactly are foundation ring braces?

wilkinsd · **Posted:** Sun Jan 23, 2011 9:24 pm

M Austin wrote:

Seems a review of the Henschel Data on Firebox material is appropriate.

So when was the English translation of this book published, and where can one find it?

Also, when the text quoted mentions a "foundation ring" are we talking about the u-shaped one on the Tornado's boiler and on other German steam, or a traditional "mud ring" like we see in U.S. practice?

Also, this begs another question. On a U.S. style steam locomotive boiler, what does the "mud ring" look like what kind of material is it made from?

Inquiring Minds Want to Know....

M Austin · **Joined:** Sat Feb 05, 2005 1:05 am **Posts:** 488

whodom wrote:

but what exactly are foundation ring braces?

Tross discovered that the European locomotive boilers would bow outward at the mudring under pressure and distorted in other ways due to thermal expansion. Note that most boilers over there were designed for copper fireboxes and had steel replacements.
Mudrings were typically "U" shaped about 3/4" thick butt welded to the firebox and outer boiler sheets.

Foundation ring braces or mud ring cross anchors are rods placed laterally across the firebox to prevent the bowing of the mudring sides in service.

Again, text and diagrams from Matt Janssen's translation of Tross paper "Firebox Back End" available for download at Wasatch RRC website.

wilkinsd wrote:

So when was the English translation of this book published, and where can one find it?

Also, when the text quoted mentions a "foundation ring" are we talking about the u-shaped one on the Tornado's boiler and on other German steam, or a traditional "mud ring" like we see in U.S. practice?

Also, this begs another question. On a U.S. style steam locomotive boiler, what does the "mud ring" look like what kind of material is it made from?

Found the "Henschel Locomotive Design Book" on eBay about 2 years ago. In English vintage 1959.
The European mudrings are "U" or variation thereof.
Almost all American mudrings I have experienced are square, the width of the water leg, single or double riveted depending on thickness. Material either wrought iron or cast steel.

whodom · **Posted:** Mon Jan 24, 2011 6:17 am

Matt- thanks for the additional info. So I take it a foundation ring brace / mudring anchor would be something like a steel rod (or series of rods) running across the bottom of the firebox from one side of the boiler to the other, thereby preventing the outward bowing of the firebox sides shown in Tross' illustration?

M Austin · **Joined:** Sat Feb 05, 2005 1:05 am **Posts:** 488

That would be my guess. Never saw a blueprint for the cross anchors.
Must have been a European problem. Never read about that in Master Boiler Makers or Railway Mechanical Engineer.....

Gary P Bensman · **Posted:** Wed Jan 26, 2011 12:04 am

I have seen test results from Illinois State University and Purdue showing testing of USA locomotive boilers with mudrings bowing outward, the crown sheet pushing down and the tubes humping upward. I see it as consistent with the results of the German testing. Consistent behavior of a locomotive boiler; horizontal firetubes with a rectangular steel firebox.

BarryD · **Posted:** Wed Jan 26, 2011 3:13 am

Gary,

Can you please post copies of these studies?

Thanks!

Gary P Bensman · **Posted:** Wed Jan 26, 2011 11:51 pm

Sorry I don't have any of that material here in Scranton with me. I can't say when I'll be able to get to it and post it. I recall these reports showing a boiler sitting on a large surface plate with many points of measurement set up to detect deflections of the boiler by using trammel points. Some of them were mounted through packing glands to detect movement of the tubes inside the boiler. As the boiler deflected, the trammel points would be moved, then when the heat and pressure were relaxed, the points would return to their original position leaving a gap showing the amount of movement.
They tested the deflections using pressure only, then heat only, then heat and pressure. The results of course showed the most movement with heat and pressure although not much more than with heat alone. I'll push my memory a bit and say I think I recall the testing was done on an NYC 2-8-0 boiler for the Illinois State tests.

John E. Rimmasch · **Joined:** Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:35 pm **Posts:** 374

As I write this I am in Schaffhausen, Switzerland, where, last night I moved not one but 5 German Locomotives from one shed to another. This morning, having read the discussion, I looked more closely at the boilers that I am surrounded by. Here are a few facts;

In the shed right now is a German 23 Class locomotive, built in 1955 with an all welded boiler. Indeed, it has a brace that reaches from one side of the boiler to the other. This boiler has a U shaped, machined mud ring, welded all around the foundation, inside and out. This mud ring has never been repaired (from the looks of it). Additionally, the boiler has all fillet welded stay bolts. Some bolts are new, some are old and clearly many have been replaced.

Next to the 23 Class Locomotive is a German 52 Class. This locomotive was built originally in 1947 and operates today as DLM 52 8055, owned by Roger Waller. You can see his web page here http://www.dlm-ag.ch

Interesting fact: The boiler on this locomotive today was built in 1960 +/- in Germany, but not by Meiningen. It was built by a third part boiler builder, under the direction of the DB. The boiler, though it fits the frame is NOT exactly as it was in 1947. Additionally, the boiler also has a U shaped machined mud ring welded to the wrapper and side sheets, as well as an all welded full construction including fillet welded bolts.

Sometime between 1947 and 1960, the practice of including the brace to support the mud ring was abandon. The new 1960 boiler of the 52 8055 is NOT included on the boiler and was NOT removed by DLM. Other 52 class locomotives that I have seen do not have the brace. Additionally, Gary B. mentions the studies that he has seen, however, it must not have been an overwhelming issue in the States as we do not see full bracing in the States. (at least I can not tell you that I have ever seen such a brace designed and installed for this purpose alone.)

VIDEO TIME:

I did not bring with me a camera that will take still shots, however, I do have our new digital Video Recorder. Urias, our faithful helper in Switzerland and myself have made a short video of the German 23 Class Locomotive, which, currently has no ash pan and is therefore easy to look at.

Mike Lewis, otherwise known to all of you as RR Graphics Guy, will get the video uploaded as soon as he can. This video will allow all of you to see first hand what I have seen here.....half way around the world (almost) this morning.

I leave here on Friday morning (late Thursday night for you guys). If you have something specific you want to see, please let me know, I would be happy to document it for you!

Please contract me direct if you wish to have something documented before I leave. You can get me through our "contact us" link on our web page, or at info@wrrc.us

I will do the best I can to check RYPN before I leave on Friday morning.

Thank you,

co614 · **Posted:** Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:15 am

Thanks John for being such a good sentinel for all of us. Very enlightening to get perspectives we would not otherwise enjoy.

Safe travels.

Ross Rowland

whodom · **Posted:** Thu Jan 27, 2011 8:36 am

John- It would be very interesting to get Roger Waller's perspective on Tornado's boiler issues. For that matter, how have the boilers on the new rack steam engines built by SLM in the 1990's held up in ~15 years of service?

I know DLM hopes to build new steamers in the future; hopefully they have a very good grip on boiler design.

BarryD · **Posted:** Thu Jan 27, 2011 12:39 pm

Thanks Gary

John E. Rimmasch · **Joined:** Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:35 pm **Posts:** 374

Hugh,

I spent time with two of the leading Swiss Steam Authorities, Roger Waller and Sigi Liechti. Neither of them have formed an opinion on the matter of the Tornado boiler for the same reasons I have not submitted my formal reason for the problems. They noted the same things that I have. A.) We simply do not have all of the information. B.) We have not seen actual photos that would allow us to form a conclusion and C.) Neither one of them likes the German shop and neither would send anything to them in the first place. (in other words they have an opinion of the German shop which taints how they feel about the deal anyway.).

Hugh, there have been some minor problems with the rack engine boilers, nothing that would not be considered "normal". Keep in mind, the boilers were built by SLM in Winterthur, Switzerland. The boilers have run well and been reliable from what I gather.

I was sent a few questions for the video. In short, I only have access to the fire box of the German 23 class as the boiler still has a full jacket. We made a 10 minute video last night and tried to focus on what we "thought" would be interesting to many of you. We even took some time to show you some things that will be of interest to other threads. I will hope to have the video up quickly.

A big thank you to all of you who are interested in the video and the work we are doing!

On our way home now......