John,

Thanks very much for the response. It's understandable that neither would speculate about the cause of a boiler problem that we really know very little about. OTOH it speaks volumes that neither would deal with the shop in question!

We finally have the video edited and uploaded. We have posted the video on our website, and it can be viewed by visiting: http://projects.wrrc.us/?p=635

Enjoy!

Thank you - so much easier to relate to what you can see since descriptions made by different people can seem to say different things - translations by computers much less enlightening.

About that side sheet to mud ring welded seam - does the side sheet sit against a rebate in the top of the mud ring, or does it just sit down at the edge without any means of placing it? I can envision benefits to either approach.

dave

John,

Great Video! I highly recommend those interested in this subject watch it.

Thanks,

Matt

Very nice! Thanks for taking the time to do that and post it.

Thanks for WRC CEO John Rimmasch for posting the video and expanding the speculation into a technical discussion allowing people to learn something new.

In May I took trip to the annual Steam Days at Meiningen, the steam locomotive factory that built the A1 Boiler.
http://www.thorsteamworld.com/photos/pbl.asp?location=Meiningen,%20Germany

As I was there they were finishing a new boiler for a "Australia's best known and most widely travelled steam locomotive" Streamlined Pacific 3801 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3801
I have some detailed photos here http://www.thorsteamworld.com/photos/pv.asp?pid=1246

As a member of the Frankfurter 2 foot Museum that has sent many projects to Meiningen such as our 2ft Mallet http://www.feldbahn-ffm.de/photogallery/Lok%2013/Lok13_22_Fahrwerk-Bild-6.jpg
http://www.feldbahn-ffm.de/photogallery/Lok%2013/Lok13_14_Kessel-Bild-4.jpg
On our Pictures page look 2/3rds of the way down for "Bildergalerie zum Projekt
MALLET Lok 13" http://www.feldbahn-ffm.de/Seiten/Bildergalerien/bildergalerien.htm

The circle of steam preservation experienced people in Germany have mixed opinions of the Meiningen work methods and products. Over the years the price for boiler work has gone up a factor of 10 but their smaller boilers are well excepted and work well.

Most people that send locomotives that have been restored to museum quality are usually really pissed when they get their engines back and find polished rods have been "reworked" with angle grinders.

Generally I think that you have to look back to the history of this last German locomotive factory. When Germany reunified in 1990 the factory had over 5,000 employees rebuilding standardized, hard working engines. Now they have about 180 works doing everything from new designs, brand new locomotives, restorations, repairs and consulting. They are known for being able to "fix" complicated projects like 4 cylinder compound express locomotives that the other shops in east europe didn't get right.

I think you can make some generalities without stepping on too many toes. Fine quality museum quality railroad equipment should general not be given to Meiningen's crude hands. But more standard German, French, Belguim and other big engines come out of Meiningen, good looking and dependable even if the deliver dates are usually missed that the work is on the low end of expensive.

But they are one of the only places that can still do steam locomotive engineering tasks and BIG projects. Look at the new cylinder for Germanys fastest locomotive made of weldments.
http://www.thorsteamworld.com/photos/pbrn.asp?roadnumber=18%20201

It is fastinating place and if I could take time off from work and family I would love to do a 6 month internship there spending time in all departments. I have a lot of respect for their "for profit" company, but I would never trust them with a brass model...

I hope that my America/German perspective, while living and working here add alittle balanced middle to the discussion.

regards
Thor

Hi All

The following was taken from the news page at the A1 site under latest news..

http://a1steam.com/index.php?option=com ... Itemid=123

Respectfully,

Robby Peartree


Tornado Update 21.02.11
Monday, 21 February 2011 11:27
The programme of rectification work to Tornado’s firebox continues at DB Meiningen as planned and on schedule. The work is concentrating on the replacement of platework (new sections of plate are being fitted to both sides of the firebox for preventative maintenance reasons), renewal of stays (some 1,100 to be replaced, 650 as a consequence of the plate replacement) and work on the foundation ring (four new corners to be fitted). This work will return the boiler and firebox to 'as new' condition and provide for further reliable operations. At present almost all the old stays have been removed and preparation and fitment of new stays will commence shortly.

Tornado has been in intensive use for some two and a half years as the locomotive has operated across the UK on main line charters and heritage railways. The boiler and firebox usage is similar to that which would be expected between heavy general overhauls in the 1950s on British Railways with regards to hot-cold-hot boiler cycles.

The nature of the repairs required are in line with those effected to boilers of similar type and are a consequence of the use of the engine on around 300 days (with another 100 ancillary days) since she entered traffic. The comprehensive nature of the facilities at DB Meiningen mean that the repairs are already well in-hand and are expected to cost no more than £50,000.

It is now planned that Tornado’s boiler will return to the UK at the end of March following an hydraulic test in Germany. This will then be rapidly followed by an in-the-frames steam test and the rapid re-assembly of the locomotive, all of the other scheduled winter maintenance work having been completed in the workshop at the National Railway Museum, York, prior to the boiler’s return.

Tornado will then conduct both light engine and loaded test runs in early May before being made available for traffic. It is now planned that Tornado’s return to service, and first main line passenger train in her new Brunswick Green livery (now to also remain for the 2012 operating season) will be on Thursday 26th May with ‘The Cathedrals Express’ for Steam Dreams from London to Bath & Bristol. Tornado will then take up a comprehensive programme of tours and heritage line visits in diverse locations from Edinburgh to Plymouth and Carlisle to Canterbury. The Trust has apologised to its customers over Tornado’s lack of availability before this date and is sorry to have disappointed so many of Tornado’s passengers.

The Trust would like to take this opportunity to thank the National Railway Museum for making their facilities available, DB Meiningen for its rapid response to the firebox issues and all of Tornado’s supporters for their patience, generosity and understanding. Progress with the work at the NRM can be seen here

Hi All

I believe it is time to say something here. If they are going to replace 1100 stays of which 650 are a consequence of the sheet removal. That leaves 450 that they have questions on in this process. For comparison GCR 300 days of operating 4960 came during the 1999 operating season based upon a 120 day operating season. In 1997, 1998 and 1999 I worked a lot of six day weeks firing. And even with that stress on the locomotive we did not break s single staybolt. Even in Europe I would be surprised that they would be replacing side sheets on a less than yearly basis. Something is wrong here that is not yet come to light.

The real question this raises is there an unknown materials issue or have we already lost too much information on quality control of locomotive boiler construction to take on such an endeavor? Contrary to some opinion out there, it was custom in the US for a firebox to last an average twenty years and even longer on the rest of the boiler. Given the continual push for “improving the machine” have gotten to the point where we have lost focus on the basics of the machine?

Respectfully,

Robby Peartree

Robby- doesn't 4960 have welded (all or mostly) staybolts?

The 4960 has welded bolts basically everywhere but the crownsheet and throatsheet. Everything else was replaced with spectacular fit up.

Jason

Hi All,

The following was stollen from the A1 News site.

Robby Peartree

Tornado Update 07.03.11
Monday, 07 March 2011 11:16
Work continues at DB Meiningen on repairs to Tornado's firebox. All replacement stays are in place with over half of the final welding required now completed. The replacement firebox side platework has been drilled and fitted, with the vast majority of welding completed in this area. Focus has now turned to the four foundation ring corners, where full replacements are being made in order to finish the repairs ahead of the hydraulic test which will be needed once all of the work has been completed.

At the National Railway Museum in York work on planned winter maintenance is on schedule with reassembly works now commencing and due to be completed by the end of March in time for the boiler's return. To this end, it is essential that the frame, wheels, cylinders, motion and all the numerous parts of the platework that have been removed are cleaned and ready for refitting.

The repaint of Tornado into BR Brunswick Green livery continues with the exterior of the tender complete and focus now on the locomotive’s wheels, frames, cab and boiler cladding. Much of this work can be done by relatively unskilled volunteers and so the Trust is appealing for those who can help to contact chris.walker@a1steam.comThis e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it . Anybody with experience of painting on metal would be particularly useful.

Meanwhile work continues at Darlington Locomotive works on Tornado’s new support coach, although with the locomotive at York taking precedence, progress has been somewhat limited. In recent days volunteers and contractors have completed the under seat heaters and installed them along with thin galvanised steel liners to the under seat spaces which are required to meet fire resistance regulations. This was originally achieved by asbestos which had to be removed at considerable expense early in the project. The fan assisted heaters for the kitchen, guards compartment and workshop have been acquired and will be piped in shortly and the components to form the air ducting for the cooling radiator of the Fischer Panda generator have been manufactured.

Once Tornado’s boiler has been reunited with its frames it will be quickly followed by an in-the-frames steam test and the rapid re-assembly of the locomotive. Tornado will then conduct both light engine and loaded test runs in early May before being made available for traffic. It is now planned that Tornado’s return to service, and first main line passenger train in her new Brunswick Green livery will be on Thursday 26th May with ‘The Cathedrals Express’ for Steam Dreams from London to Bath & Bristol. Tornado will then take up a comprehensive programme of tours and heritage line visits in diverse locations from Edinburgh to Plymouth and Carlisle to Canterbury. The Trust has apologised to its customers over Tornado’s lack of availability before this date and is sorry to have disappointed so many of Tornado’s passengers.

The Trust would like to take this opportunity to thanks the National Railway Museum for making their facilities available, DB Meiningen for its rapid response to the firebox issues and all of Tornado’s supporters for their patience, generosity and understanding.

Dear Mr. Odom,

As Jason described it is a mix of welded and treaded bolts. It should also be noted that a significant part of the work was done by people out of the power boiler world and this was their first time around boilers in the tourist RR world. Yet the work turned out just fine.

Robby

I know y'all likely get tired of me saying this, but I think a lot of steel that is on the market these days wouldn't have qualified for a scap pile in Youngstown 60 years ago. IMHO a lot of mill specs provided from a recently industrialized area of the world are little more than creative fiction.

The latest news on the boiler is here on the A1 Trust website:-

http://www.a1steam.com/index.php?option ... Itemid=123

Quote:-

Thursday, 31 March 2011 10:01
The A1 Steam Locomotive Trust is delighted to announce that Tornado's boiler today passed its hydraulic test at DB Meiningen, Germany at 375psi.

Neil.