Ross Rowland returns to Let's Talk Trains on Saturday. Ross will be talking to Bob and Elizabeth about his upcoming project, the Greenbrier Express luxury train and discussing the CSX policy of no antiques vs the desire to have steam be part of the experience. Ross will also be presenting the idea of a Living History Trust as a way for serious steam fans to buy a partial ownership in C&O 614.

Join us at 1:00 PM Eastern/10:00 Pacific. The show can be heard at http://www.letstalktrains.com. Join in the discussion by calling 1-646-716-7106 or going to the website and click on join the chat room.

A steam locomotive with several people being able to stake claim to partial ownership of it.

Yeah - there's NO WAY that would end badly down the road.

Methinks, think A1 Steam Locomotive Trust in England, or the Strasburg. The 614 Fund LLC. Why not?

Michael Seitz
Missoula MT

Considering who owns 614, it's likely anyone who contributes money won't really "own" anything at all. I'm willing to bet that the current owner, and/or their estate, will be set up to always have controlling (majority) ownership in the trust ... with any suckers ... er, I mean contributors ... owning a total minority portion of the trust. The words "ponzi scheme" come to mind.

This is also at least the third, possibly fourth, supposed venture to involve money for 614's restoration over the past five years, so I can see where many will be skeptical.

Will we be able to download this as a podcast off of iTunes?

have to thinkl of it as a form of partnership, many saved equipment came from multiple supporters behind it in some form, owners or otherwise, or it would never gotten saved.

Antiques... thats a broad generality, say like 765 they totally rebuilt it, making it practically a fresh new engine.

Consider the Space Shuttle, many major components are new on the Shuttle every launch. I would wonder if any shuttle hasn't seen a full mechanical replacing over time.

Or the Leviathon, looks like an antique, its a spanking new engine! And there are modern steam builders today who will make an engine for small tourist lines, brand new engine! ...antique....

Glad to see that at least a few of the negatoids are still alive and well. Haven't heard from them lately and was starting to wonder if perhaps this very cold winter in the Northeast had killed them off.

May I suggest to those willing to have an open mind on the subject of a joint ownership Trust that you participate in todays program and perhaps gain a new perspective on the whole subject.

I'm looking forward to the dialouge and am confident we'll have a good discussion.

So what was the long and short of it?

We had a number of interesting guests call in including a recently retired officer of NJ Transit who had some very nice things to say about the 96-98 614 excursion program and a retired CSX officer who had some positive comments on his experiences with the 614 programs run during his tenure.

We also discussed the Greenbrier Express project at some length and the concept of fractional ownership geared to wealthy steam lovers.

Please go to ....www.letstalktrains.com....and listen to Saturdays program for details if you're sufficiently interested.

I enjoyed doing it and hope to do a repeat somewhere down the line.

Ross Rowland

Well which is it? Is it a no steam policy or a nothing over 60 years old policy? What if I take a new genset switcher and put alco trucks under it?

Seems like a new locomotive like the leviathan would qualify to operate over CSX. However, that would not seem like something they would reasonably allow.

scott

Listening to this, my interpretation is no steam and no antiques, period, and considering that the youngest available main line, roller bearing steam locomotive is now over 60 years old, that means main line steam is out on both counts. The reason given is that the railroad does not have the in-house capability to properly inspect and clear such equipment, and it is also perceived to lack track capacity as well, primarily in the event of some sort of mechanical failure. The management also has the priorities of safety and profitability, hence the concerns about mechanical reliability resulting in delays to manifests. So for now, no steam and no really old cars if they have to be inspected by CSX or moved directly by CSX (i.e., that office car).

Now, the Greenbrier Express will be all roller-bearing cars, rotating end caps, and Amtrak certified. Essentially, CSX will have relatively little to do with it; Amtrak will handle the inspections, and the train is to operate under Amtrak auspices. For CSX, it would be just another Amtrak train. And as Ross had reported on other posts, the work previously done was done well, and the ferry move had no problems; again, this is something that goes a long way to convincing Amtrak and CSX to go along with the Greenbrier project.

Now, Ross has also commented that he had hopes that CSX could have a change of heart in regard to steam. However, this entirely depends on the current or future opinions of CSX management, which would also have to include them eventually reacquiring the expertise of dealing with older equipment, either through hiring "old train guys" directly or working with "old train consultants." Final comment: it's their railroad, the ball is in their court.

If anybody can convince them of a change of heart, it will be Ross Rowland.

It's too bad things are so hostile in the current time for mainline steam. I particularly recall my first mainline steam trip on Sept. 10, 1977. This was with the Chessie Steam Special and the 2101, and was an encore performance that was not originally scheduled of the first steam New River Train. This trip almost didn't come about because of a threatened strike, but fortunately the strike didn't materialize.

Impressions from the trip include the rapid acceleration so typical of steam once it hits about 35 mph or so, first exhibited after crossing the double truss bridges east of Huntington; the glimpse of the narrow gauge industrial railroad at a nickel processing plant; the farmer in the field on a tractor who paid no attention to us, and like the late David P. Morgan, I wanted to shout, "Look up, brother, she's steam!". . .

Goggles are needed to prevent "cinder-eye-tus," especially if you are in the third car behind the auxiliary tender, ask about how I know this. . .the New River Gorge is a wonderful, spectacular piece of railroad. . .there are all sorts of attractions along the former C&O that could be connected by rail, like pearls on twin steel strings. . .they include the city of Huntington, considered then to be West Virginia's most beautiful city, and at that time, with miles and miles of brick streets which it may have still (and some people are supposedly looking at bringing back streetcars there). . .the state capitol building and other historic houses in Charleston, although unfortunately the Libby-Owens-Ford plant in Kanawha City, with its distinctive row of 8 huge brick chimneys was demolished for a very pedestrian shopping center. . .several state parks are along the route, including Kanawha Falls, Hawks Nest, Grandview (now part of the Federal New River Gorge National River), and the little inn across the river at Glenn Ferris, Pipestem (off line, but near Hinton), Bluestone Lake (just above Hinton, would be neat to connect the train with a steamboat on the lake, Swiss style); going beyond Hinton and up the Greenbriar River eventually takes you to White Sulpher Springs and The Greenbrier, which once advertised itself as "life as it should be". . .

There was and remains a particularly strong impression I have from the return trip to Huntington. This was in early September, and by the time we were coming into Deepwater (famous to us as an interchange point with the Virginian Railway prior to the N&W merger in 1960), we were in deep twilight. The sky was a beautiful, dark, deep indigo, with stars; the hills, just black silhouettes, the Kanawha river, also deep blue with sparkles, reflecting the sky. Goggles down, I leaned out the coach window to look forward; our locomotive was just a lumpy silhouette, outlined by the headlight beam as we took a long curve to the right, with a dull red glow visible through the air inlets above the ashpan. Check the beam for trees, then a glimpse back at the train, a long line of golden windows, and a second line of golden rectangles bouncing and dancing on the ground; there is a scene from the animated film, "The Polar Express," that has this effect in it. On down the river. . .

On down past Mount Carbon, around more curves. . .here comes a block signal displaying "approach," but we are coming up on it at track speed under the eye of a C&O engineer (Ross Rowland had "outlawed" on time by then, and was deadheading two cars behind the one I was in). The signal went to "clear" practically under the pilot, and of course flashed to "stop" in perhaps a second as we hit the block; I remember watching the smoke and steam from the locomotive swirling in the red lights. Around another long curve to the right. . .and in the distance, another block signal displaying "approach". . .beyond that was another block signal, displaying "stop". . .and beyond that, two moving red lights, the markers on a caboose on a train running just ahead of our steam special!

I kept watching all those lights as we swept around a curve that must have run for miles. The "approach" signal was getting closer. . .and we weren't slowing down.

The caboose markers passed another red block. The first red block dropped to "approach." The signal displaying "approach" dropped to "clear" in front of the pilot, and flashed to "stop" in about one second. Again we raced under smoke swirling in red lights.

This performance was repeated for miles into Montgomery, where we made a stop for water. It was a glimpse into what it must have been like to ride up the Hudson on the 20th Century back when that train ran in multiple sections.

It was a brilliant display not only of steam, but of real, old-school, heads-up railroading. It's too bad the current management is so reluctant to put on such a display today, even if I must reluctantly understand at least some of the reasons why.

Other impressions, which must also be recalled--the little old lady, a mountain grandmother, who was in an open-window coach, who commented how she rode this instead of one of the air conditioned cars because she was "just an old-fashioned country girl". . .how we outran tractor trailers on the West Virginia Turnpike between Cabin Creek and Kanawha City; the crowds who came to see us and watch us, both day and night; the two old railroaders, one in uniform and on duty with a big, yellow walkie-talkie radio on his hip, commenting about how "Old ----- is having fun with the whistle, there isn't a grade crossing for three miles," the other replying with, "Well, he should, it's the first chance he's had to run a steam engine in 31 years."

Then there was the fireman shaking down the grate at the station in Huntington, and the locomotive being uncoupled and moving off, leaving a train--indeed, a railroad--that just wasn't complete without it. . .I remember the whistle booming across Huntington as I walked to the hotel as the 2101 made its way back to the Huntington Shops.

I also remember how I looked like I had been in a minstrel show when I looked at the image in the mirror at the hotel! One of the guys I had made the trip with said, "You gotta quit working in that coal mine!"

Shortlines in steam, like the Strasburg, Cass, and the EBT, are wonderful, but they are not the same as mainline steam. . .

I haven't been the same since.

I couldn't find New River steam footage from 1977, but perhaps these clips can serve as stand-ins.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJorlcjxvvw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXIEG31HKRA

Coming up Sand Patch; that nice, loud stack makes up for the loud paint scheme. . .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Wk58jlwVq4

Thanks, Ross.

Be of a better frame of mind. Remember, NS was never going to operate steam again, either. Regimes change and cooler head will prevail once more, especially for an old C&O girl, returning to her home.

For those talking about the trust, the idea was about 20 people putting up $300k to restore, operate, and maintain the locomotive.