As I've often posted I developed a thick skin many moons ago and learned that the Monday morning quarterbacks/wanna-be's are an unfortunate part of the territory and while they come and go there's always a few of them around the fringes.

Seems to me that the far and away most important yard stick when considering any individuals comments is...what's his track record of achievements??

Put more simply...take it from whence it comes.

On reflection so far since 1966 five of my concepts have enjoyed success ( HICO,AFT,CSS,CSE,NJT) which between them have put mainline steam in front of approx. 50 million folks and two have failed to get off the ground ( ACE-3000, 21st.Century Ltd.), and two are works in progress ( GBX,YRE) for a batting average so far of about 700 which ain't bad for a 9th. grade dropout!!

Not to worry that the negatoids will cause me to stop sharing with you as that's a big part of the enjoyment of creating ideas...... that sometimes work and sometimes don't.

As that famous poem goes...far better to be in the fight then one of those who goes through life always on the sidelines!!

Let's keep dreaming and scheming!!!

All the best, Ross Rowland

May I remind those who seemingly weren't around at the time that the AFT also involved $1 million each from Pepsi-Cola, General Motors, Kraft Foods, Predential Insurance, and Atlantic Richfield (ARCO) Petroleum.......... and you can only use that excuse every 100 years............



Both with outright cooperation and major financial involvement of the Chessie System, and in particular a railfan VP, which got help from quite a few private owners and groups for passenger cars...... and that excuse only comes around every 50 years.........



NJ Transit and (gasp!) taxpayer-owned trackage......... and I still want to hear why it hasn't happened since, if it was such a no-brainer and success........


Rowland has a knack for salesmanship with some proposals like this, and in the cases of his success he's something of a genius. But the "Rowland Groupies" have to stop acting like everything he does is solely his own creation/money, or that he can walk on water. Otherwise, we'd be lining up to purchase tickets for the next B&LE 643 excursion..... >;-)

I don't think anybody is claiming he paid for all of these ventures himself? The fact is Ross knows the formula and more often than not accomplishes the seemingly impossible. Those who don't understand his trade secrets can either be amazed or be critical. Either way we should try to learn from his successes and failures.

I'm not sure how it matters to the sucsess or failure of an endeavor who the financial contributers were, as long as it wasn't the Taliban...or why it wouldn't be a good idea to not have to spend your own money on an undertaking like AFT, the very program that got so many people involved in RR preservation (or exploitation, if you must) in the first place. If you can raise funds from the private sector in exchange for advertisement or whatever the agreement was for something like AFT or YRE, good for you, I'll come watch...it's not as if the major contributers to these things have been the taxpayers, is it? And even if it was, I can think of a myriad of things I would much less enjoy having my money to go toward...Good luck, and good hunting Mr. Rowland.

Cheers, Dave

I don't know of any producer who self funds his productions, whether they be railroad excursions, Broadway plays, motion pictures, TV shows, music videos, etc. It is the way the business works. Shares in the production are sold, and if successful, the investment pays its shareholders. The producer may use some of his funding to set up the business and promote the sale of shares, but that's probably the limit of his exposure. His compensation is in terms of a management fee or percentage of the gross, for building the package and getting the show up and running. If Ross owns 614, he's investing a major personal asset in the proposed business, which is more than most producers put up.

How many other business bigger than a mom and pop grocery don't use OPM? You do, every time you swipe a credit card, finance a car or a home, or make an insurance claim. There's nothing unusual, immoral or not completely Capitalist about it. Can we bury this red herring now?

There's an interesting idea in the comingling of a nonprofit trust with a history of privately funded business enterprises. I'm very interested in how it works out as a potential model for this sort of production company.

dave

I think ADM is missing the point. Mr. Rowland is who brought Pepsi, GM, Kraft et al. together for the AFT. Those companies still exist yet have not come together to run another cross country steam train again. So obviously there was a catalyst that made it happen, and we all know who that catalyst was.

The leaders of any movement are the ones who are remembered by history.

I agree that the prospect of a private consortium pooling money to own and operate a steam locomotive has some merit, as does the concept of "using other people's money" as Dave puts it.

But a couple such groups have been put together before in the UK, with not much success. The most spectacular? The group that tried to keep and run LNER 4472 before its bail-out--forgive me, purchase--by the National Railway Museum.

Rowland could easily gather a lot of money by offering "shares" in his proposal for $50 or $500 each to all his fans. That's basically what happened with 4472--and it didn't work. I will give Rowland credit for not taking the easy way out, but instead attempting to deal only with a few big bankrollers.

A couple years ago, I was lucky enough to be in front of a panel with eight of the "pioneers" of craft brewing and brewpubs in the Mid-Atlantic. I asked the panel, "If you had it to do all over again, knowing then what you know now,what would you do differently, if anything, and why?" The panel sat silent for about 45 seconds, staring at the ceiling, massaging the foreheads, gazing at the navel, whatever. Finally, Jim Lutz, the last of the founders of the Wild Goose brewery in 1989 that was still in the business, pounded the table with his palm, looked at me, and said, "MORE MONEY, FEWER INVESTORS!" The other seven heads instantly nodded in unison. Thus started a couple minutes of basic business administration philosophy around that theme. Rail preservation is similar to brewpubs in that the easiest way to make a small fortune in the field is to start with a giant one, and that it's largely marketing that distinguishes the successful/well-known players from the others..........

ADM said:

"Rowland could easily gather a lot of money by offering "shares" in his proposal for $50 or $500 each to all his fans. That's basically what happened with 4472--and it didn't work. I will give Rowland credit for not taking the easy way out, but instead attempting to deal only with a few big bankrollers."

What was the scenario with "Tornado" and the famous "Pledge a Pint a Week"? Was that not a "small share" way to fund a steam loco project? Or was there additional funding and were there numerous larger "investors"?

Howard P.

Of course any project of any size mandatorily requires lots of good folks helping to make it a reality, not only on the funding side but also on the operating side.

As I've many times posted in the past, I always do my best to give proper credit to the "troops" whose contributions are vital to the success of any project.

Thanks to studying Scripture I know that the ability to walk on water is reserved for only one soul and it isn't me.

As to Howard P's point re:Tornado, yes, that was achieved over many years by the small contributions of many. My past experiences with the American steam loving railfan community leads me to believe that the chances of being able to raise $ 6-10 million dollars here for a mainline steam restoration/operation project are minus zero. The ever shrinking, died in the wool steam fan base here is made up of ageing, mostly middle/lower middle income folks who are primarily worried about out living their nest egg not seeing a steamer run.

IMHO the ONLY way it will ever have a chance of happenning in the USA is if a vehicle like the LHT is set-up and is able to attract the participation of 20-30 very wealthy individuals who find the appeal of being able to come out a few days a year and be part of a mainline steam team sufficiently rewarding to kick in $ 300-400k.

We're doing the investigatory work to see if those folks exist and in a few months we should have the answer.


Ross Rowland

I recall this was the failed business model for the first restoration of MILW 261? Likewise the consortium that owned CPR 2839 was not very successful, save for the brief lease to Southern Railway.

Wesley

It's only a contest if there is more than one competitor. ;-)

Seems to me this is another case of someone expressing some ideas on RYPN, and then getting spit on.

The interesting twist is that in this case, the idea man has a luxury train coming to life, a 4-8-4 (recently back on public display) and a track record of raising investments... the other side has keyboards.

So, the detractors have to ignore that and focus on dreams unfulfilled. It's like watching high school heroes critique an NFL quarterback for not completing 100% of his passes, or disparaging the legend of a great MLB hitter because he didn't hit 1.000

I know its the way our culture is.

Whatevs... it gets old fast...


Rob

Thanks for the supportive posts. Seems to me that it's important to keep everything in perspective.

When you step back and take a dispassionate look at it there's really less than a handful of terminal repeat offender negatoids on RyPN. We all know who they are, and whether they're wanna-be's or suffer from some other form of negatoidism is unimportant.

I've learned over time that the only effective antidote is to ignore them. I would request that you join me in doing that.

Thanks, Ross Rowland

P.S. Always keep dreaming,scheming and steaming!!!

Mr. Lisowski:

And it gets equally old to hear constant bashing of Steamtown, certain museums that declined partnerships, or other steam operators, from a man whose own locomotive hasn't turned a wheel under its own power for nearly 13 years.

A large part of the problem, is that there are countless other organizations and/or individuals out there who don't bask in the hero worship element. They just quietly go about their business, run the locomotive when they get a chance, and then move on to the next project. When 4449 ran cross-country last year, did you see any bold proclamations from ORHF that they were going to do X, Y, and Z years before the fact? No ... they quietly keep the locomotive in top shape, the trip was planned and coordinated in the background, and it was announced AFTER all the arrangements were made. Yes, a lot COULD have gone wrong ... but it didn't. They told everyone at the appropriate time, and they walked the walk.

Yet, with Rowland, that's not the case. It's announce first, then worry about the details later. This is nothing new to him ... and if you look at his real success rate, it's much lower than he's making it out to be. Among others ...

-Proclaimed in an Iron Horse Enterprises newsletter that he was going to run excursions with 614 over Amtrak from Philly to Harrisburg. Never happened.

-Proclaimed in several online forums that he was set to sign a partnership with a museum in PA and run 614 on excursions over NS's Pittsburgh Division under Amtrak auspices. When questioned how he intended to get NS's cooperation toward steam excursions, he claimed he didn't need it if Amtrak approved the locomotive and the train was run as an Amtrak extra. Said museum allegedly backed out of the proposed arrangement and is now a target of his frequent bashings.

-Proclaimed he was going to run the Yellow Ribbon Express on a schedule more ambitious than the American Freedom Train, even though much of the infrastructure that allowed the AFT to succeed is gone. Now claims that project is still "ongoing" so it can't be claimed as a failure, even though it has missed its proclaimed schedule by several years.

-Proclaimed he was going to use 614 on the Greenbriar trains, including announcing that he was shopping for two addtional locomotives as backup power. When asked how he intended to run steam on CSX, he again gave the answer regarding Amtrak approving the locomotive and running it under Amtrak auspices. Days later he backtracks and says steam has no immediate plans on the train, due to CSX's embargo of steam locomotives.

-Has now proclaimed the idea of a Living History Trust for 614, aimed at wealthy steam fans. I believe the contradictions are starting there as well. One report clams he has talked to approximately 15 interested parties, and now it's suddenly far less with a "we'll see how much interest there is in the coming months."

Again, why is it that every time steam is from another player, nothing is said until the project is firmly financed, underway, or ready for tickets to be sold? With Rowland it's the opposite ... announce now, don't deliver later ... and then bash the "negatoids" who don't subscribe to the "Ross is so wonderful" line of thinking.

He doesn't need the hero worshippers to defend him. He could silence his own critics by simply learning to keep his mouth shut and not anounce any more projects until the wheels are ready to turn. Yet, he doesn't do that. One reason, is that he may subscribe to the theory that even bad press is stll press. Keep your name in the spotlight and they won't forget you when someone else is succeeding where you are failing. The other revolves around the old saying regarding the wrestling of pigs ... sooner or later you realize that the pig actually enjoys it ... which is probably one of the reasons Mr. Rowland always claims to ignore his "negatoids," but is always among the first to respond to them when they post.

CP,

I have to believe you know that is not true. The past decade or two have seen plenty of steam announcements come and go without results... insurance, host railroad issues, loss of funding... I feel no need to list them out, as I have no bitterness towards the planners. A casual look back through RYPN will reveal quite a few of these. For the most part, the RYPN community reacts with understanding while the railfan boards scorch the eyebrows off whomever they perceive to have wronged them.


Rob

Rob,

I will admit that nobody has a 100% success rate, for varying reasons. Many of those operators are very credible and it is understandable when things out of their control happen. But, the groups that are having the most success aren't making one failed project announcement after another. They realize that, at some point, their credibility is going to vanish if they can't deliver the goods.

Honestly, I think that the entire subject of a Living History Trust wouldn't have turned this way, had it been presented ... evey by Ross himself ... simply as an idea for discussion. The pros and cons could have been talked about in a productive and logical manner.

However, once it became talk of finding 20 wealthy enthusiasts buying shares in his locomotive, I think a bit of skepticism should be expected. Why? Because instead of it being simply about the idea, it's now centered on Ross attempting yet another angle, when he's had very limited success since the NJT trips of the 1990's.

Even though I've been one of Ross's most harsh critics, in his heart I believe he means well when it comes to steam. Mostly, I question his methodology and need to be the showman of steam. It doesn't have to be that way ... and, again, he can silence his critics by simply taking the time to get things firmed up BEFORE telling the world he's going to do it.