Recently on a road trip to Chicago to pick up the fam at Midway Airport, I passed something on the Indiana Toll Road that made me think of just this line of discussion. It was so interesting that I had to dig the camera out of the bag in the passenger seat, then slow down and let it get past me enough to grab a shot one handed. I'm sure the truck driver thought I was nuts, but, then again, who isn't? I am quite certain this was headed to Caterpillar or a similar manufacturer.

It certainly proves that locomotive frames need not be a one piece casting but could be more affordable fabrications built up of plate, structural shapes, machined components, and castings. Seeing things like this and other recent steam restoration and repair makes me believe not only can it be built, but can still be made right here in the USA (surprising, I know). With Backshop Services, TVRM, Strasburg, and others, a properly funded project could come together rather quickly.

BTW, the Heritage Lottery did not contribute to the Peppercorn as I recall. I do recall that Sir Richard Bramson made a sizeable contribution, however, along with numerous other fundraising operations.

"Properly Funded", those two ominous words.

Most groups are telling me that donations are down significantly since our long global depression began.

PC

Things, and places change. Where to run a NYC 4-6-4? How? Maybe somewhere with big rail like Steamtown? Or Iowa Interstate? They have two Chinese Steam engines "Super powered" built in the 1980's. I think you might find Iowa Northern interested too.....route of the old "Zephyr-Rocket" So where there's a will or money that is there's a way! There also might be future opportunities. Some on this list are only in the past. And even others can not see new steam, Amtrak trains selling out or twenty dollar gas. I say build it! Make it a Streamlined 1930's style engine! With lights on the drivers.

I'll admit this sort of project is a dream of mine, and I'm not alone. I'm an optamist when it comes to ideas like this. A quick check in my wallet brings home the fact that I can't do it by myself, But I beleive it can be done and I'd like to be a part of the project.
There are so many steam projects out there that are worthy of a persons time and money, but none are really like this. Does anyone want to persue this further?

Brian

Even though this discussion comes up periodically, it might be worth discussing how to make a "new" Hudson acceptable to a potential operator. Okay, welded frame, welded boiler, roller bearings, Diesel control stand, Amtrak acceptable lighting, probably oil fired (I hate that idea, but it's a nod towards what I think would have to be included in a package), what else? And if NS bought into operating it, oh heresy, running it up Horseshoe Curve!!

Speaking from personal preference, I wouldn't contribute to an NYC Hudson project. Maybe a "new" Southern Ps-4, definitely an N&W "K" class 4-8-2 project. It's probably unlikely that this scenario would ever take place in this country, too many personal favorites.

And now for something from slightly closer to the inside of the box......

A spare cylinder and saddle set of castings was risting away at Madley, PA with the Preston RR 2-8-0s. I'm hoping it was saved with the rest of the rusty iron. If so, we have a very good start to creating a medium sized (21X24) new steamer what with the most difficult casting already in hand, without scrapping anything else to obtain it. The only other situation like that I'm aware of is new old stock castings at Glover Machine Works for vevry small locomotives with slanted cylinders - I think 8X14 and 5X8 if memory serves, assuming they were saved.

I'm imagining a ten wheeler or prairie with about 60" drivers in the 80-90 ton range. No specific prototype for people to hate relative to their favorite example, so it could be equally supported or ignored with no emotional interference. Modern boiler engineering and construction, the only efficiency issue in the steam flow would be the existing cylinder and steam chest casting. Fabricated frame, roller bearings everywhere, lightweight rods and carefully engineered counterbalancing to minimize dynamic augment. Capable of hauling 6-8 lightweight commuter cars at decent but not super speeds, a travelling branch line and special event consist.

Do we NEED another mainline size hangar queen?

dave

Just drove home for my spring break and was pondering this subject most of the way.

The J3a Dreyfus Hudson was no mere steam locomotive. It was an icon of the 20th Century. Its lines were drawn by the same hand that designed your telephones, thermostats, vacuum cleaners, pens, alarm clocks, tractors, and much more. It's style penetrated nearly ever aspect of everyday life during it's time. It was featured in everything from kids books to clothing ads.

If a person, museum, organization, corporation, or group of beer buddies is serious about building a new J3a, whether static or operational, it should start with a Henry Dreyfus display. This gets multiple interests groups and money sources involved.

So what original parts exist from these locomotives? Bells, whistle, builders plates, pressure gauges, original shrouding...? Tracking down these original parts would be the next step. Tender at Steamtown doesn't count except for possible information source...

Start with a static(maybe wood?) replica but add original, or correct reproduction parts as you go. Maybe later assess what else would be needed to make an operational locomotive. I think what people really want out of this locomotive, as opposed to other steam locomotives, is to feel it's presence...to see what once was. Everybody has seen and loves the photo's, but few have actually witnessed a Dreyfus Hudson. Henry Dreyfus Associates, Henry Dreyfus's design company, still exists today. Why not get them involved with making new shrouding? It would be a great PR tool for them.

-Alex

I've had similar thoughts, although I concur with the majority that there is no realistic expectation that this could ever happen. Still, it could be an interesting exercise in imaginative kitbashing.

Why would the Steamtown tender "not count"? It would be far easier to start with that tender, than starting from scratch.

I suspect that there are many "pieces" and parts existing in museums. It's practically impossible that any of it would be available, but when one considers the list of "off the shelf" parts and assemblies that went into a modern steam loco, one could get a sizeable portion of a Hudson from other existing locos:

Air compressors, injectors, power reverse, headlights, builders plates, cab appliances and so on - all of this must exist someplace

Feedwater heater & pump - There must be one of these around someplace that matches the Hudson

Lead truck - I took a brief look at the general specifications for lead truck the Hudson, and it appears that another similar (or identical) truck exists on at least one loco.

Pilot w/ drop coupler - similar (or identical) units also exist

Two axle delta trailing truck - were these "stock" items? If so, one of the existing ones probably would match.

Cab - could there be a similar or identical cab on another loco?

Front end throttle & superheater units. As I understand it, these were manufactured by Alco for many locos. Perhaps an identical assembly exists out there?


It would seem that, except for frames, boiler, drivers, rods, and cylinder saddle, much of a (non streamlined) J3 might already exist. . .

Again, I don't view this as a realistic endeavor (I do have about 25 yrs of experience in restoration / maintenance / operation in a museum setting). It's just an exercise in "out of the box thinking". I don't want the realism cops to come after me with pitchforks.

JR

We have seen three 1860's 4-4-0 replicated (two for National Park Service in the 1970's, a third recently for a private project) with one more proposed... there is a 1869 San Francisco built 2-6-0 under construction (formerly in Strasburg PA, now in Iowa... slowly)

It can be done...

These are small enough to be done with private funds... two had a place to operate... of the remaining three two will move about, the third will have a home road.

Modern wielding techniques offer new solutions... Boilers continue to be problematic... but continue to be built...

It is doable... but the business and funding models are elusive...

I can see how this subject could rub someone the wrong way. I mean look what is out there that really needs help to survive even just as a static display. MEC 470 up in Waterville Maine is a prime example.
Here's one tidbit to think about that would set the Hudson Replica apart from vintage steam.
When I worked for Conway Scenic Railroad the #7470 was once being inspected by the regional FRA steam locomotive inspector Paul Ferman. Mr. Ferman was looking things over and made the comment " I sure don't like to see this old iron on the road anymore".
He didn't mean #7470 specifically, but rather our nations collection of American operating steam locomotives. It was old iron to him, and he had the authority to make or break an organizations steam program based on his judgement of the locomotives structural integrity. The 7470 passed and went on to run that season, but I've never forgot that statement.
A newly constructed locomotive, following the old design, but with modern day safety and structural improvements would be an easier pill to swallow for the FRA and potential mainline railroads.
I say lets roll.

Brian

Personally I think it is rather sad that everyone is clamouring over an NYC hudson, when the Santa Fe donated a "super hudson" with 84" drivers, 300lbs boiler, and all the latest and greatest features to the town of Topeka Kansas, yet it sits in rather deplorable condition (last I saw pictures) in a park. There are other worthy hudsons out there. Sure Lionel didn't make them famous, but the AT&SF hudsons surely took a back seat to no-one.

I think a Dreyfuss (some call it "Art Deco") NYC Hudson discussion was going on when I first started reading RYPN. It seems to be the "Topic That Will Not Die". It has also started discussions a number of times on Trainorders.com. I suspect the interest in this project tends to vary inversely with the distance from Grand Central Terminal, but the NYC Hudson has captivated fans all over the country and probably around the world. Whether it has captivated enough enthusiasts with enough money among them to warrant organizing a Donate for a Dreyfuss project is open to question. Here in Southern California, we have Santa Fe 4-8-4 3751, which has run (and will run next month) on the SCRRA/Metrolink track between LA and San Bernardino. If someone from this area were asked to give toward a "foreign looking" engine (although Santa Fe did have a similar stream-styled but smaller engine) it would be a "hard sell".

Oh no, not the Dreyfuss monstrosity. Build it as built, or better yet put the cowling on a diesel.

Thanks to one and all for keeping this dialogue going, and not flaming or otherwise shutting down the discussion. Absolutely, the funding and business model aspects are critical-otherwise the replica would never happen.

But keeping the discussion going on the "how-to" aspect is not only encouraging to rypn newcomers, but also keeps the flow of ideas alive.

In fact, Randy's commentary on the new-construction locomotives is something I tried to foster last year. Specifically-if someone can build a 4-4-0 in their shop/garage, what is the largest/optimal-sized new steam that could be built? Not "what is the biggest", not "what is the most expensive"-but what can and should (?!) be built? Erik Ledbetter and others have discussed the merits of a 6-coupled engine (even though I'm an Easterner, I like the potential of a clone of a Santa Fe 2-6-2: nice combination of size, tractive effort, etc).

Unfortunately, the first reply-from someone with a reputable shortline/tourist railroad-started with "sigh", as if the topic were not worthy of discussion-and the thread died shortly after that.