In mulling over Brother Ledbetter's response to the lengthy thread on whether RyPN is properly a "preservation website" anymore, I found myself musing for a while on a separate question, related closely to that topic. More accurately, it's a whole series of questions, upon which everyone should chime in (save possibly for a certain litigation-quick bloke)..........

There has been some degree of discussion (some might say "harping") for years now on whether or not there really is a national rail preservation movement in the United States or North America, and if not, why not. I think a consensus of folks actively involved in the field would say "not really," aside from the soon-to-merge Tourist Railroad Association and Association of Railway Museums.

Suppose there were one.....................


Just suppose.


Exactly what form would this "movement" take? How would it manifest itself? What would be done differently from the way things have been going on for the last fifty or more years?

Who would be in charge? How would they end up being in charge? What would they be in charge of? Is this a role for the leadership of the ARM/TRAIN, the NRHS, the R&LHS, the excursion operators and equipment owners themselves? Or a committee of all of the above? And who sets up and/or appoints same?

"You get what you pay for." Are you expecting this to be a bunch of volunteers, or are you going to (somehow) pay for the brains with both the railroad knowledge and the non-railroad (fiduciary, political, etc.) knowledge necessary to run this? And if the latter, how does someone pay for the costs and brains and time?

Can you identify a country, other than perhaps someplace smaller than Belgium or New Jersey, that actually has what you consider to be a "national rail preservation movement"? Explain what, in your eyes and others', makes that example truly "national" and a "movement."

RyPN: Is this website somehow going to end up the default clearing house for information? If so, who's going to maintain and edit it? Who separates the wheat from the chaff? Who slogs through (just to make up fictitious-for-now examples) a daily press release and blogpost from an over-enthusiastic NS steam program, while beating down the door to get answers from the UP steam program? Does it become a paid-subscription/firewall site? Would said "firewall" keep out more people interested in the concept than would be in it?

There are a couple well-intentioned, albeit independent and uncoordinated, efforts out there to document in database form every last preserved steam locomotive, diesel locomotive, electric car/locomotive, station, historic rail structure, and railroad bridge out there. Should this all be consolidated into a common database? Some of these databases have some kind of profit motive or cost recovery built in. Should the owners of these databases be somehow compensated for their past efforts? Should they be paid a retainer of some sort to continue to maintain their specific areas of interest? If someone dies, who replaces them? And does someone pay interns to go out and add the passenger cars and freight cars?



In short:

What do you want this movement to look like?

Now, having said that, how, realistically, do you think that can be accomplished?

Well, since I serve as contract Executive Director for a museum association on an outsource professional services contract, I can give some insight into this at least.

An outsource association management contract for bare support (member renewals, website, and board meeting support) will start at about 10k or 15k a year. Full service executive director work, including strategic planning, advocacy, grant writing and grant project management, as well as the basics of member service, etc. will run 30-60k a year depending on options. Doing print publications will drive up this cost, as will doing an annual meeting, though the latter will bring in revenue as well.

Back of the envelope says you will need to foresee having about 300 members paying $100 each on average to write a realistic association budget.

And you still haven't identified exactly what, conceptually, you/we get for that $30k, insofar as the "rail preservation movement."

I am unsure what is meant by a "National Preservation Movement" beyond the slow and steady progress underway within ARM over the last 10-15 years and the potential synergy of a joint venture with TRAIN?

Private efforts support fairly comprehensive databases for preserved steam locomotives and electric traction. US diesel and passenger collections are sadly not yet addressed. In terms of the "big stuff" this means we have an idea of what's out there in two major categories, and ARM's Recommended Practices offers some basic principles for planning care of listed and yet-to-be listed objects.

I have singled out "Recommended Practices for Railway Museums". Much of that report can be applicable to managing large collections of equipment, a station museum, or an NRHS library collection. Likewise, ARM has a standing parts committee that serves as a clearinghouse for, well, parts. And the annual conference offers seminars covering most of the major categories outlined in Recommended Practices, plus safety issues and FRA regs.

Let's give TRAIN/ARM a chance to define itself in the next 12-18 months and see if the momentum continues for a clearly defined expanded mission for that organization.

Wesley

It looks like me getting MEC 501 on the track to restoration.

The notion of a national movement has a nice ring to it but I think that our diversity in focus and geography makes it unworkable. Operation, museums, stations, traction, varnish, shops, marine, narrow gauge, and the list goes on and on.

We have functioning national organizations that facilitate some level of cohesion on different levels and different ways. Preservation is and will continue to evolve and organizations will come and go. The bottom line is there will always be a supply of guys who like this stuff and have (sometimes wild) dreams.

RYPN is a great place where information is shared, news is passed on, and we enjoy fellowship. Sometimes we get off track and sometimes "foamer" stuff makes it's way to the board but all in all there is a lot of good stuff here. As with anything else, there is room for improvement. I have often wondered if we would benefit from another division of boards that would include: strictly technical, news, history, and classified. I see merit in this but also I think that many people would pass over much of the content focusing on just one favorite area much like very few people read/post on the classifieds now. Also, I would like to see more articles but making that happen is easier said than done.

Oh, indeed--nor was I trying to. I'm just telling you what it takes to run a generic national professional association with different levels of contract support for standard widgets like member renewal processing, newsletter publishing, annual meeting, etc., independent of content. "What you get" is a content question that's up to you--what do you want?

I am technically not in the preservation/museum field; but have encountered organizations around the world while collecting data for my databases, I thought I could give some feedback here.

There is one organization that came to mind. It is the ABPF, or Brazilian Railway Preservation Society. Brazil is no small country, and the ABPF is keeper of roughly 45 steam locomotives, several facilities, and an unknown number of rolling stock across the country. They are also sell an extremely nice book that lists in great detail all of the surviving steam locomotives in Brazil; they may have resources for other items.

The first link shows some of their preservation efforts; the second is their official website.

http://www.internationalsteam.co.uk/trains/brazil3.htm

http://www.abpf.org.br/

I thought about the TRA, or Taiwan Railway Administration in Taiwan. They have five or six locomotives, a steam crane, and at least one facility; but it seems to be the historical arm of the main railway steam (like UP's steam program) and not a seperate national entity.

South Africa's railway preservation movement seems to be a loosely knit group of organizations which is suffering major losses due to vandels and selling off assets for scrap; so they are probably not a good model to study. These are the only ones I can think off; looking beyond railways, there is also a National Traction Engine Trust in the UK for preserved traction engines; but how big a role they play beyond publishing a register I am not sure of.

http://www.ntet.co.uk/

On the other hand James, South Africa might be a great case study in what not to do. No point losing valuable lessons.

Realistically, I don't expect to see anything more (assuming it happens at all) than a better communications network which will promote cross regional awareness among us all, perhaps a more formal and useful hardware trading exchange, a talent pool, and national speaking voice to represent us as regualtions are considered, and perhaps some form of marketing assistance and cooperation or purchasing cooperative to maximize bang for buck. I'd be overwhelmed if this much happened.

What we should see and won't is a rational plan for a national mainline steam excursion program that rotates locomotives in and out so all get well used and earn their keep in turn and return enough to provide for the next overhaul. Shared consists and management benefit everybody. Problem: who volunteers to go last, and meanwhile devotes fund raising to the good of the entire program knowing it won't be your engine that benfits directly for 25 years?

We also won't see (I'd be very pleased to be wrong about this) a cooperative plan to build new generic tourist line sized steam locomotives, coach stock, obsolete diesel assemblies, or anything else that could have broad benefit but not conform to a specific narrow prototype.

I'd really like to see providers of custom products and services succeed since we won't do it cooperatively for ourselves.

dave

Tom hit the mark with his comment regarding existing organizations. The area for review should be to take an existing organization and add umbrella coverage that offers true value for members at a very reasonable cost.

Master Web site / Data base management- emphasis on railroad related items of consumer interest, that would drive persons to the various member web sites. This could develop a master database of interested persons, that can be used as a referral base of opportunity targets to get member sites to solicit new or additional business.

Many organizations would welcome a template to help update their sites and possible hosting since they lack the staff to manage this important task.

Excursion management assistance - This site seems to have a number of very knowledgeable persons that could be offered to develop a series of programs to assist in helping get excursions off the ground and running. Develop a car sharing program database that will allow for "certified available cars" to be made available for a reasonable charge.

School programs - Develop a viable certified national educational program for members that refers down to the local level for completion of the program. The Boy / Girl Scouts, trade and industrial schools could and should be targets for get involved programs. Many schools are looking for day outs for students that provide "educational value". If done right it would provide a "program course" that the member site can follow to meet educational goals.
We have a whole list of potential "programs" that have local emphasis that can be developed with input form this boards members.

Plan a day out or vacation - use a regional approach to capture potential prospects with referral information, either mail or web based

Museum Management assistance - Many museums need solid advice on how to manage their site. Questions regarding ADA, crew management, site management, bathroom standards all should be offered as guidelines for member organizations.
Make the visit pleasant, they will return and tell other persons about it.

If a trusted branded organization such as NRHS took on the task at a reasonable charge it would have a brand name, members within target organizations, and a base of members with expansive knowledge. This is just a suggestion.

What would a National Rail Preservation Movement look like?

It would need to look competent and be competent.

It would need the internal resources and talent to be able to successfully manage a business, advertise and promote its activities, manage and maintain websites, operate a respected library, deal with government bureaucracy, rules, and regulations, provide technical support and advice in the preservation of equipment, and develop and present educational programs. And it would need to be able to advise and assist its members in those and other related areas of business and preservation activity, through the development of guidelines, standards, or perhaps even providing instruction locally.

And if they have to hire outside help for those functions because they can't do them with their onboard talent, then what use is having them "help" you?

PC

Not sure I follow you here PC. Stipulating that we want a talented staff, the question becomes how to compensate it. There are three models:

1. Volunteers--hard to find with the talents and time required
2. Salaried staff--until an organization reaches a certain size, hard to pay employer portion of social security not to mention medical and retirement benefits
3. Contract staff--secures talent w/o social security, medical and retirement benefits

Contracting for your association staff is not hiring outside staff because onboard staff is incompetent, its hiring outside staff because you can't find volunteers with the mix of skills and time needed, and are too poor to pay salaried staff overhead.

[points to what Erik said]

First, you ask for a vast and diverse talent list, then you ridicule the ability of anyone to "assist" because they can't do it all "in-house." We can't all be the damn Smithsonian.

We might be able to bring about this fantasy of yours were we to consolidate all rail preservation to one museum/institution/excursion line and perhaps a couple related satellites. I'd like to stay in the world we actually have, thanks.

Every successful, or at least modestly successful, operation (business or otherwise) should have a mix of talent, from the gregarious salesman who can sell sand to the Arabs but can't count right, to the brilliant accountant whom nobody lets near a phone, to the delivery driver who knows his customers, or whatever. Even a one-person business succeeds because of the abilities of that person to be all-in-one.

A successful museum or excursion operation takes the long view, identifies what it needs to fulfill its mission (an administrative director to take the long view, a steam boiler expert, a PR plan, etc.), and identifies the best way to fulfill that need given the resources it has (coddle the volunteers, hire in pro help, schmooze their way into grants or big donations, etc.).

And right now, in my opinion, we're still trying to figure out the mission to fulfill.

From the ARM website:

The purpose of ARM is to lead in the advancement of railway heritage through education and advocacy, guided by the principles set forth in "Recommended Practices for Railway Museums," and incorporating other practices generally accepted in the wider museum community.

I submit that the mission has been defined as noted here. The next step is how to improve and expand resources in support of that mission.

Wesley

The problem is that for every place that fits that "mission statement"--B&O Museum, NRM, Steamtown, CSRM, NCTM, WW&F, etc--there's one where that mission doesn't comfortably fit yet is inexorably part of "rail preservation" anyways--Strasburg, Grand Canyon, C&O 614, PRR E8's 5711 and 5809, Black Hills Central, Clark's Trading Post, a warehouse full of stuff in U.P. Michigan, the Reading & Northern, even UP's steam program. There are but a small handful of rail operations that effectively have nothing to do with rail preservation--perhaps a couple of dinner trains, the Denver Ski Train, maybe the Verde Canyon RR or Alaska RR tourist rides.......

That "schism" has been the dividing line between the ARM and TRAIN for years now, and I anxiously await just how the proposed merger is supposed to accommodate that division of mentality/mission. If the "mission statement" gets re-tweaked, would you still say it applies?