A world class case study in the old maxim...." A little knowledge is a very dangerous thing"...

R.I.P.

Ross Rowland

What an unfortunate story. I was always looking forward to seeing/photographing/riding behind a K4s in the Poconos. I bet Steamtown is happy to have the space back and to be further disassociated from it.

Joshua

Josh, the space is a welcome relief. With a winter full of asbestos removal and engines with new boiler jacketing Steamtown management is trying to keep all the asbestos free engines inside until all are re-painted. The bay the K-4 was in is one of the longest bays so they will be able to get several engines in there.
565 has a little tank engine behind her and we can't move the tender right now. Plus both F3s are in the roundhouse for maintenance.
Lots going on behind the scenes, the vertical boring machine is been tested and looks good. They will be able to work on the tires for the engines. I'm not the expert but they will be able to cut the tires to the exact measurements to fit on the axle sets.
I don't know if we are going to move 565 over there. We like that we get to interact with the guests and if we are in that bay we are kinda out of the way. Right now we have scaffolding up in the front so we are eye level with the guests. Keep an eye on Steamtown this year several projects, building and equipment, may be getting funding.

All of us who want to see her made ready for future operation get pelted with stones (coal) whenever we breathe a little optimism into the 1361. I don't get it. Some work had to have been done correctly, and the folks at the Altoona Railroaders Museum have expressed a desire to see her fired once again. Yes, there was a horrible waste of money [i]in the past[i][, but what of it? Why kill the horse because it was attended by inept vets?

I'll bring the metaphoric starburst and orange soda. :)
Man, I hope that the 1361 gets running again. This is better than finding out that the frisco 1522 is going to California :)

Brother Glueck, you cannot be serious.

Have you actually read the copious amounts of detail about the condition of 1361's boiler that was printed in this forum as far back as 2005?

Currently lying beside me is the PRRT&HS Keystone, V. 42 #4 (Winter 2009). In it are nine pages of fine print of letters and essays on the subject and condition of 1361, among them Mike Tillger's screed printed here on August 6, 2007, along with a much longer screed by Joe Michaels, presented as a "Mechanical Engineer's Report on #1361" (said report got several facts wrong, among them that the loco was removed from the Curve in "1980" when it was removed by Conrail in September 1985, and that the loco "derailed" during one of its runs on the "Conrail or Amtrak main lines"). I will point out that none of the letters in this particular collection represent or defend the actions of the Railroaders Memorial Museum, custodians of the 1361.

I am not willing to recount the long "laundry list" of problems with the 1361 as a restoration candidate and the problems with its restoration attempts here, as many of them would still fall more under the category of "allegations" pending someone showing actual photographic or ultrasound evidence AND "chapter and verse" of the applicable boiler, CFR, etc. regulations, but to briefly summarize:

*The boiler was flawed, in a sense, from the moment it left Altoona's shops in 1918, with fine cracks possibly resulting from sloppy boiler-crafting and forging during original construction;
*Certain aspects of the boiler's design do not meet current regulations; this has been addressed in previous RyPN posts and affects other PRR locos such as LIRR G5s's 35 and 39;
*1361 was "run hard and put away wet," and sitting in the open for over 25 years in a snowy valley certainly did it no favors;
*It would be extremely difficult AND expensive to craft a PRR-style Belpaire-design replacement boiler, even one meeting existing standards, in 2011 because of the "shoulders" at the firebox top.

Other allegations concerning actual restoration techniques/attempts have also been discussed or raised in other RyPN posts in the past. There's a search function in this forum.

The PRRT&HS is now in a decidedly acrimonious relationship with the Railroaders Memorial Museum, having supposedly extended an "olive branch" to the Museum and having that offer rejected, according to PRRT&HS officials. I am extremely loath to get in the middle of what is obviously an ugly "p*ssing match" between two parties, neither of whom I am in the mood to defend at this time, but I would also take the opinions of the PRRT&HS with the same grains of salt as I would any politician's or museum director's in a case loaded with allegations of misused grant monies.

Brother Mitchell #4, I understand the failures involved with the misuse of restoration funds, but to simply discard what has been accomplished in favor of simply discarding the hope of seeing a Pennsy K4s operate once again, just doesn't go down all that easily. You mentioned, correctly, that similar issues have been discovered in the two LIRR G5's, yet Strasburg has addressed that same issue with 39's boiler. These issues can be addressed by the engineers concerned.
Please don't get me wrong; I am not in favor of throwing endless baskets of "C" notes to revive a dead horse. If, however, RR Mus. finds the funding to repair and reassemble her as was originally intended, should anyone stand in the way?
I guess, in the end, I hate to see this quintessentially iconic America steam locomotive, become the punchline of jokes. Compare it to watching your Aunt Mary getting hit by a bus and left in critical condition, but, wow, what a flight! I'd rather see the doc get Aunt Mary up and walking again, assuming it's possible.

Repair and reassemble for presentation and display? Absolutely.

Operation? By now, it really IS literally flogging a dead (iron) horse. By now, it would most likely (but not 100% assuredly) throwing good money after bad. We're coming very close to the "Washington's original hatchet" (37 handles and eight heads later) syndrome. It was nice while it lasted, but the time has come for a different strategy or locomotive. Give us a place to operate such a loco (such as a NS steam program or the like), and pursue a replica.

And the PRR fans have to accept: Operationally, it's 643 in Williams Grove, the 4483, a change in Pennsylvania Historic & Museum Commission policy, a replica, diesels, or nothing. And we don't even know if 4483 would pass inspection or be accepted for operation anywhere.

"Washington's original hatchet" syndrome is exactly why 1361 is now the perfect candidate for completion of it's operational "restoration". There's only one direction that can be gone at this point and it's forward. Terms like "original fabric" and the such really have nothing to do with this locomotive anymore. Why not complete this K4 for the enjoyment of the community, and education opportunities it will provide? After all, there... is... another.......

The educational mission, that's it!

For some reason this restoration always reminds me of the S.S.Nobska. I have on my bulletin board a 1996 New Bedford Standard Times article about how rebuilding the 1920s steamship's reciprocating engine is going to help educate the youth of the community for 21st century jobs. An estimated $5 million or more later, the engine is stored in a warehouse, reportedly with parts miissing, the money is all gone, and the Nobska is gradually coming back to the US as foreign steel products.

It sure taught a lot of people a great deal about how to spend lots and lots of money and have almost nothing to show for it.

PC

And the saddest part of the whole Nobska saga, after she was scrapped to vacate the drydock that was so desperately needed for the Constitution and the Cassin Young, here we are 5 years down the road and they still haven't used the damn thing!

No, absolutely not in my mind. Heck, if it's worth the effort, get her running again. There is also the possibility to get a GG1 running if you use the guts of a AEM7, but I digress.

It seems to me that the consensus on the impossibility of restoring the locomotive rests mostly upon the fact that a lot of money was spent on a restoration effort that collapsed. But say we just set all that aside and look at the locomotive as it exists today. Assuming a competent and efficient restoration program was initiated, how much money would it take to restore it to operation?

Certainly this ought to be an easy thing to calculate given all of the unknowns that have been removed by the previous work.

Richard -

That kind of reminds me of METRA scrapping Dick Jensen's GTW 4-6-2 #5629 because they were going to erect a building right where it sat. Yes, the place is a METRA materials yard, but no building was ever erected on the spot where the Pacific was located.

Les

Totally disgraceful. This is borderline conspiracy, but sounds like someone thought that 5626 was a piece of junk that couldn't have been moved! Last I checked, she had wheels.