That's my whole point.

This locomotive's boiler story gets more and more like the failed attempt to resurrect the Winton engine for the Flying Yankee, which also turned into a bottomless pit that consumed money.

If it is so important that the locomotive must run, even though they would appear to have little chance of operating it, constructing a new boiler would be the most viable alternative given the long history of the original one developing unexpected problems and burning up money.

Any replacement should employ conventional and proven design that is acceptable to the inspecting agencies, and then jacket it to look like the original. Forget about building exact duplicates of things that had known design problems.

PC

You see, this is an example of the "politics" described earlier by Brother Hees.

The ENTIRE POINT of the exercise, originally, was for the Railroaders Memorial Museum to rebuild a monument to "Altoona's finest craftsmanship" and the "glory days of the PRR."

The engine was selected for the Curve in part because it had been built by Altoona Works, not Baldwin Locomotive Works. If it had been built at Eddystone but somehow ended up at the Museum, I doubt anyone in Altoona would have ever gotten the idea to rebuild her for operation. I was there in Altoona for the first restoration, and the local pride being stoked and fanned over that locomotive's return to operation was on the order of near-hysteria, rallied in no small part by the Museum and its promoters and the local media.

Ordering a new boiler or firebox, or otherwise replacing enough of 1361 to operate soundly, makes perfect sense from a technical standpoint. From a political standpoint (both governmental and organizational), it's a grotesque "slap in the face" to all the men who worked in Altoona Works in steam days, the men of the PRR who maintained her, and the folks who put their sweat and dollars into fixing her the first time around. I would surmise that it is this political bomb, more than any technical or financial obstacles, that prevents any real progress on the return of 1361 to operation.

And putting it back together without it being operable would admit failure.

Sounds more and more like the Flying Yankee's Winton engine.

Well this is a fine kettle of fish:

http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/rach ... index.html

PC

Well, using the "Political" guidelines, there are very few locomotives that would have returned to service, 1522 among them.
We had considerable criticism when we replaced the original brake stand and substituted a 26L system. Ditto when we replaced solid bearings on everything but the driver axles (would have done that also if it was doable), added a second Nathan lubricator, second water glass and on and on. Anyone who has restored anything to mainline operation has faced the nay-sayers.
Everything that we did along those lines made the engine friendlier with pilot crews, mechanical folks and made it blend into the background. The biggest compliment we were paid is when we were on the BNSF, we were treated just like another train and not the subject of intense attention. That's the technical reality.
You have to make the decision that if you want something that makes people nervous to run and be around, then you shouldn't do it in the first place. Replacing the boiler or firebox is not an insult to anyone on the PRR, it's just making it comply with the regs that exist now.
I would like to see the 1361 back in service, again just like the rest of you. But as the Duke once said "A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do".
All of the sniping, snarking, bitching, hand wringing,criticising and whining is wasted effort. This subject has been publicly flogged for years now and to what end?
Let's put our efforts into something constructive.

If there is someone that finds it insulting then it is insulting. I don't understand why every time someone brings up the K4 everyone has to give their own opinion regarding the restoration. The topic is "K4 leaves Steamtown roundhouse" but somehow the topic became, as it always does, "What comes after the K4 leaves the steamtown roundhouse". And every topic it is the same member(s) telling individuals that did not give their 2 cents last time that their opinions are wrong.


-Scott
(I am not telling you what I would like see happen to the 1361, just let it's owners to what ever they want to do with it)

Given PRR was lucky to get a decade out of a firebox, I reckon nobody who actually did work there would find anything unusual or offensive about replacing what needs to be replaced. Let's get a grip. Many things may be debatable, but attributing unlikely emotional reaction of the dead assuming they actually could provide such things as a valid part of making technical or business decisions is simply not rational.

dave

Dave hit the nail in the head! It's a completely illogical mindset.

Think about it...how many times did 1361 go in for overhaul from 1918 when she left the erecting bay to the end of her operation on the PRR? How many times did they probably replace the boiler or replace very integral parts of the engine in order for it to run? IF the opinions of long-gone shop workers mattered at all, I'd highly doubt they'd scoff at the idea of getting her a new boiler. They'd probably just consider it standard operating procedure.

It's something that really infuriates me with the steam preservation community. When you approach a restoration from a rational perspective, progress can be made. But that's when you have people like Alex Mitchell jump in who would cry and moan about destroying the "historic fabric" of the locomotive, and claim that those long-gone shop workers who worked on her would be outraged and appauled at the very idea. When in reality...it's all in their head! They don't know the first thing about what past PRR personnel would think or say, and even if they did...IT. WOULDN'T. MATTER.

Why people actually LISTEN to them, I cannot fathom.

While I'd love to not make comparisons, this is even more heated than the discussion surrounding Maine Central 501 on new england railfan. Then again, the disgruntled "master mechanic" keeps going around in circles.

I only know the general overview of the history of this K4, but after reading all of this, I conclude that the engine will never escape its tainted past. No matter what it stands for, it will always be a monument to failure. There are too many failed commitments; too much egg on faces to even objectively consider what it would take to move forward, let alone raise the funds. I would be surprised if it ever gets put back together for a just a static display. The only possibility for resurrection that I can see is to give it to somebody who just sees iron parts and let them apply their vision and go forward. Perhaps somebody in another country could bring that to the table.

The original curator at our local museum was one of the "Historic Fabric" folks. He was good at acquiring, but failed at preserving. After all, to paint or otherwise restore anything would destroy the fabric. We were able to restore 1522 only after he was gone, but he still sniped at us and fought it tooth and nail.
You can still find original historic fabric from his era if you take a shovel and dig out there. It's disguised as rust and debris.
You will never see the end of these kind of people. No matter what the effort, they will come out of the woodwork and criticize, snipe, bitch, wring their hands and make you think the world is coming to an end. If you are to please them, then nothing should ever be touched after it's donated to whatever museum, even if it sits outside and rots at least the "Historic Fabric" is intact.
Sorry for the rant, but sometimes I just get fed up with the WGAs. (World's Greatest Authority).

Jeez, someone might want to tell this to Smythe. Maybe then he would listen to reason, but I digress.

Smythe is still negotiating on the 1522 to Kahleefornya deal.

If you replace deteriorated historical fabric with a brand new replica of it, is that destroying historical fabric or maintaining it?

[quote="PCook"] If it is so important that the locomotive must run ***, constructing a new boiler would be the most viable alternative ***. Any replacement should employ conventional and proven design that is acceptable to the inspecting agencies, and then jacket it to look like the original.
PC[/quote]

That's a rather simplistic statement from someone who would certainly know better if his own area of expertise were under discussion.

Seriously? Just build a boiler to a different (non-PRR Belpaire?) design and 'pad it out' so that the jacketing looks right? What about weight difference and consequent effect on springing, or to put a finer point on the same issue, what about weight distribution differences (meaning you couldn't - figuratively speaking - simply take one leaf out of every spring to make it all work out). Now you're affecting adhesion, and hence there are braking consequences. Or maybe it's just a matter of welding heavy scrap to such a boiler in the appropriate places so as to replicate the weight of the original?