There are very few museums devoted to just one road. Generally, the various railroad historical societies fill big parts in the preservation of the histories of specific roads and, in most cases, predecessors and subsidiaries that don't warrant their own organizations. Most organizations like this usually collect and preserve archival material like files drawings, letters, photos, and various smaller ephemera related to their respective roads. Many produce high quality periodicals, books, reprints, provide lots of research for modelers and museums, and even sponsor restorations of equipment for their respective roads, but few acquire equipment with intent to build 1:1 scale railroad museums or run trains.

Organizations that come to mind that do have real equipment collections are the C&OHS, the RDG HS, the Antracite Roads HS, and the WMHS. There are also corporate museums that focus on their respective roads - UP Museum, NS Museum, and the now private B&O Museum. The B&O now identifies their mission as national in scope, not just limited to the B&O's corporate existence and related roads. Steamtown does not limit itself to the Lackawanna, but does do an excellent job interpreting that road's history as part of their overall experience. Friends of 261 does serve as sort of a "Milwaukee Road Experience," albeit without a brick and mortar style interpretive experience (personally, I believe a living history experience is one of the best interpretive tools possible, especially when it comes to steam locomotives and railroading in general). There are some others out there, especially smaller organizations and historical sites that deal with single local or industrial railroads, but I can't think of any other significant organizations devoted to the history and interpretation of just one railroad (well, let's not talk about that one in northern Indiana adjacent to former NYC Robert R. Young Yard just yet).

All of this said, what kinds of things should a museum devoted to a single road/system have insofar as its purpose or mission? Is a C&OHS model the one to follow?

What types of equipment should such a musuem have or attempt to acquire? What kinds of artifacts, records, and ephemera should be collected? I realize that the previous two questions are dealt with by having and following comprehensive collections policy, but what should be the basis for such?

Would partnering with a road specific historical society with no permanent home to establish an archive be a good idea? Should publication production be included in the mission, perhaps as part of such a partnership?

Should significant amounts of successor road equipment with origins in other companies be included? Example: Would a National Southern Railway Museum want to include a lot of N&W equipment (more pieces than Southern), even painted for NS?

Should some equipment be acquired or restored for operation? Example: former ABC railroad observation car or lounge car as potential rolling ambassador and interpretive vehicle (through excursions or private car trips)? Should efforts be made to acquire surviving pieces not yet officially preserved? What about acquiring pieces at other museums to complement or fill out a collection (possibly through long term or permanent loan)?

Should historic properties located near but not on the museum (with a mile or so) site be evaluated for acquistion and preservation? If so, for what uses?

Would an expanded version of Steamtown's DL&W interpretive exhibits be the right direction to go in for the brick and mortar museum experience?

I realize the questions are many, but I am looking for thoughts from the preservationists in the RYPN community, as we have some of the better observers, thinkers, and doers that contribute frequently to this board. So, for the experienced members of our community, please comment on the questions that you have interest or knowledge in contributing to.

Thanks for your time!

Mike
Mohawk, Indiana

In the East I think you will find the EBT a one road museum as is the Reading Historical Society's museum, also the Baltimore Streetcar Museum is pretty much Baltimore only.

Let me start. We are in an old PRR station an there were many different roads that ran through here over the years but there is no equipment left from the older ones and the last operater, the UTC just leased equipment from the PRR, so we concentrate on things PRR. But we are an area history museum so we encompass many different facets of history from the area like the bluberry, cranberry, and dairy industries of days gone by. As far as our railroad equipment, we have in our collection, equipment that would have come through here in the history of the station. And since we are a representative of local history including the county we have amassed a five piece collection of Roebling Steel equipment. Now in that collection, the two bay taper top hopper, gondola and flat car (or similar pieces) probably ran through here. The two diesels, 100 and 45 ton GE center cabs wouldn't have. But late in the lines life, there was a 44 ton GE center cab #9999 that did run the smaller consists around out here.

We would love to find equipment from the older lines but we have looked and there just isn't anything to be found, so we will work with the equipment that we have collected, from the 1890s cabin car (N6b) and boxcar (X23 converted in '43 to an NX23) through the 1923 Tidewater tank car, the 1939 45 ton GE centercab, the 1942 N5c, the 1959 PS-1 to the youngest member, the 1960s 100 ton GE center cab.

This keeps us occupied along with the restoration of the original rail yard next door that has an ash pit, turntable pit, footings for the freight house and an engine house foundation somewhere over there.

Later!
Mr. Ed

I think you have asked way too many questions at once to get a comprehensive answer from a discussion forum such as this one. Because I expect this topic to address one or two questions and then devolve into an interesting but unrelated topic... I will give you a quick assesment of my opinion which may be worth less than others, likely, but at least I tried.

>>> what kinds of things should a museum devoted to a single road/system have insofar as its purpose or mission?

I think it depends on what you want to do, and what resources you have to start with. No beast of the nature you are describing is the same. What is the most important thing... historic right-of-way that is mostly intact? One really cool station? A rare collection of equipment from one line that needs a new home? My answers to your other questions might expose the details of this aspect.

>>>Is a C&OHS model the one to follow?

Maybe, if a small collection of equipment to provide a museum site and some storage space for your random objects that you also have from the railroad is your plan. There are plenty of other models. Here is the C&O equipment description:

http://www.cohs.org/archives/

Other examples include Sumpter Valley Railroad, East Broad Top Railroad, Denver and Rio Grande Railroad (different groups in Chama/Antonito and Durango/Silverton), Colorado and Southern, White Pass and Yukon Railroad, Wiscasset Waterville and Farmington RR, Baltimore streetcars, San Francisco streetcars, San Diego streetcars, Chicago Milwaukee, St. Paul and Pacific Railroad (Mazomanie WI; Warden WA; Montevideo, MN; Sioux City, IA), Northern Pacific Railroad, Union Pacific Railroad (a company-owned museum, and sponsored collection in Omaha). I am sure the list goes on and on. We might also consider station/terminal museums/historic sites such as at Chattanooga, Kansas City, Buffalo, Ogden, Harrisburg and so on.

>>>What types of equipment should such a musuem have or attempt to acquire? What kinds of artifacts, records, and ephemera should be collected? I realize that the previous two questions are dealt with by having and following comprehensive collections policy, but what should be the basis for such?

Should is your operative word there. It is completely relative to the person or group considering the question. In the case of EBT, the non-profit group has specifically focused on EBT equipment, of which there is a good supply around, especially at the historic site already. Other nearby, interesting surviving equipment from neighboring narrow gauge roads in PA and OH have not been pursued. In the case of the SVRR and the WW&F narrow gauge equipment was brought in from all over the place to re-create an experience. The basis for these two may be the same... to recreate history... but the means to do so differs greatly. I am sure there are other bases people will bring up for discussion.

>>>Would partnering with a road specific historical society with no permanent home to establish an archive be a good idea?

It would seem so, but a blanket statement to say "yes" may be tempered with the question... Is the historic group capable, full of active people who are sane and reasonable? Or might competing personalities and missions lead to catastrophe and anquish? IERM (later IRM) would probably have been a part of CERA if not for early squabbles that led to a separation of groups/individuals.

>>>Should publication production be included in the mission, perhaps as part of such a partnership?

Should question again. In the case of FEBT/EBT it seems to be working out nicely.

>>>Should significant amounts of successor road equipment with origins in other companies be included? Example: Would a National Southern Railway Museum want to include a lot of N&W equipment (more pieces than Southern), even painted for NS?

>>>Should some equipment be acquired or restored for operation? Example: former ABC railroad observation car or lounge car as potential rolling ambassador and interpretive vehicle (through excursions or private car trips)? Should efforts be made to acquire surviving pieces not yet officially preserved? What about acquiring pieces at other museums to complement or fill out a collection (possibly through long term or permanent loan)?

HMMMM.. sure. yes. yes. Sounds good. Do it if politically possible. (and IF it makes sense to you and your group's mission statement).

>>>Should historic properties located near but not on the museum (with a mile or so) site be evaluated for acquisition and preservation? If so, for what uses?

Yes. At IRM old buildings in nearby towns were acquired and restored for library purposes. FEBT acquired railroad buildings when it was thought they would be torn down or otherwise destroyed. Other examples?

>>>Would an expanded version of Steamtown's DL&W interpretive exhibits be the right direction to go in for the brick and mortar museum experience?

NO COMMENT. This may be a very good question, however it deserves its own thread. The questions you asked are interesting, and I hope this discussion does not turn into another dead-ended threadlocked camelback in the quagmire. I would suggest working on an idea for how this last question might be done and then propose it for discussion. There is little to go on from your one sentence to say one way or another.

The B&O museum was relatively limited in scope. There are a few non-CSX predecessor pieces, but not many.

Ok... now that the discussion has started, let me clarify some.

If a museum were to bill itself as the "National" ABC RR Museum, how does that affect your thoughts/answers? A local station museum or preservation of an entire railroad (I am so glad the FEBT and EBT continue to build such a great relationship for that national treasure) is somewhat more limited or focused in scope than a museum dedicated to the whole of a major trunk line.

As for the Steamtown interpretive exhibits on the DL&W, I'm not sure how to better describe them, as it has been a couple of years since I've been to Scranton, but I do recall how well done I thought the overall experience was done. Say what you will about various aspects of Steamtown, but the NPS does have great abilities in the creation of interpretive museum exhibits across the nation and their standards are second to none.

One other organization that I failed to mention that seems focused on one railroad, or a big part of it (the people), is the RRer's Memorial Museum in Altoona. Been a few years since I was there as well, and really wasn't thinking along these lines then - just had a blast watching my beautiful wife try to do some the interpretive experiences (she had some trouble keeping up with the yard clerk and yardmaster tasks...).

Thanks for the input so far,
Mike

One philosophical problem that I've had with the general concept of a "national [fill-in-the-blank] railroad museum," be it by accident or design, is that it tends to concentrate activity and enthusiasm into one location. For a small railroad such as the Ma & Pa or Northwestern Pacific, this can be a good thing; for a big railroad like the Santa Fe or PRR, much less so. It runs a risk of the perils of "putting all your eggs in one basket."

The B&O Railroad Museum is probably the case study for this syndrome. A B&O fan in central Maryland is no doubt in seventh heaven. Pity the poor B&O enthusiast in Chicago, New Castle, or Toledo, however--they've got a token diesel or passenger car here or there. There isn't a dedicated Santa Fe museum, so there are the prospects of several projects scattered across the system--and we've seen it with 3751, 3415, and 2626 and others. (Now, if we could liberate a few of the diesels in Sacramento.....)

The Reading group is an interesting head-scratcher. The railroad was the right size that a central museum makes perfect sense; the museum is indeed both central and near the namesake center of the railroad, and they've been VERY good at getting a lot of stuff. But in a sense they have too much, and no longer have a neighboring short line eager to "play with" them. I'm glad they exist, but will there come a time when the only sensible thing to do is turn over a few jewels to the Railroad Museum of Pa., a museum which has relatively little Reading representation in part because the RCT&HS exists "instead"?

The Canadian Museum of Rail Travel in Cranbrook, British Columbia, is about Canadian Pacific passenger trains and cars.

I wouldn't do too much head scratching about the "Reading Group". They were originally formed when someone discovered that Conrail sent the Reading archives into the dumpster. A few guys started carting it off, then assembled it into a collection. They did what the RR Museum of Pa wasn't interested in, and that's what the group has managed to do.
Such as:
The last-built Budd RDC
The last caboose built by the Reading Shops
The first production GP30
One of only a few Alco C630s still in existence, and the only one with Hi-Ad trucks
One of very few surviving U30Cs, in early body style
One of the MU cars from the last train out of Reading Terminal, Philadelphia
A two bay covered hopper converted from a four-bay coal hopper at RDG shops
The last locomotive overhauled by the Reading Loco Shop

"The shortline not willing to play" is hopefully a short-term problem, not permanent.
And, the museum is plodding along, gradually being developed with relatively low debt,and not extravagant funding. A true work in progress.

First thing you do is survey the players currently out there. Ugol's law: You're not the only one. This is a prerequisite because it's both bad form and poor use of precious volunteer energy to replicate others' good work. This "lay of the land" also includes the extant equipment suitable for preservation and possibly endangered. From this survey you now know where your limited resources will gain most purchase toward your mission.

> Should significant amounts of successor road equipment with origins in other companies be included?
> Example: Would a National Southern Railway Museum want to include a lot of N&W equipment (more pieces than Southern), even painted for NS?

Absolutely NOT. This situation should be avoided at most costs, I can think of two exceptions.
#1. You have a very explicit, interpretive reason for doing so, that is NOT about "dying with the most toys" or "collectin stuff" or "saving it from the scrapper" or whatever.
#2. Trade bait, but don't go kidding yourself.

Being a "one railroad" museum has a price. If you're not willing to pay that price, then cut the **** and be a generalist museum.

No horseheads. The big railroads won't let you use anything that resembles their current scheme. The only exception is if museum best practices say that is the ONLY permissible scheme. That's how several museums have Armour Yellow UP equipment. You notice they DON'T say "Building America".

> Should some equipment be acquired or restored for operation?
> Example: former ABC railroad observation car or lounge car as potential rolling ambassador and interpretive vehicle (through excursions or private car trips)? Should efforts be made to acquire surviving pieces not yet officially preserved? What about acquiring pieces at other museums to complement or fill out a collection (possibly through long term or permanent loan)?

You need very particular pieces of equipment to operate. You need coaches which are both mechanically fit and suitable. As an example of "not suitable" consider a CNW group looking at former Metra CNW coaches - which are sealed-window, HEP and mechanical air. You also need locomotives which are reliable and won't burn parts or fuel too bad.

The problem is - what turns you against your mission is - the chances of finding that stuff in your chosen railroad are quite slim. So you end up settling for other stuff, and now what. You apply false paint, and people who know are not impressed, it hurts your credibility as a museum. You paint correctly and now a diverse museum.

Like I say, being a "one railroad" museum has a price.

> Should historic properties located near but not on the museum (with a mile or so) site be evaluated for acquistion and preservation? If so, for what uses?

There's no such thing as owning too much land. Ultimately you are bound to the same realities as other museums: Hard to run a train if you don't have a railroad, hard to keep stuff painted if you don't have carbarns, hard to have carbarns if you don't have land, hard to have a real future if you're a tenant.

Agreed. I'm a member of the RCT&HS ( http://www.readingrailroad.org ) and they really have a grip on their mission. The collection of equipment is rather impressive if I must say so myself. Possibly to Mr. Mitchell's dismay, I believe we're actually getting a piece of equipment from the RRMofPA instead of the other way around....

I too hope that the "shortline not willing to play" is a short-term issue, and I believe that it is. Car storage revenue appeared to be the biggest driver of what happened to the line.

I still think it's ironic that the society decided to purchase the new museum facility located on a PRR line as opposed to a Reading line, but I understand the site selection.

Thank you very much for the commentary - this is exactly the type of answer I was hoping to solicit from several different folks to see what other's opinions are. Thanks to everyone else to participating in the discussion. Would love to see it continue a bit more.

Best,
Mike
Mohawk, Indiana

Mike, I'd submit that if you were starting with a clean slate, the very first thing you should do is think really carefully about your mission. As gear heads, our (usually unstated and unexamined) premise is to create a synoptic museum of railroad technology (first of this, last of that, only surviving example of model X). I would submit that today and in the future very few of our customers are interested in such a museum--no matter how much we are. Instead, I would encourage a new group to take as its mission "to show how railroad X changed the lives of people in (state, region, valley, what have you) Y. Then, make all your collecting decisions in accord with your mission.

This will give you a completely different perspective on how much and what kind of equipment you need. Say you have as structures/site a banchline depot and freight station. I would submit you need nothing other than the smallest possible site-relevant passenger consist (say, diesel, combine, coach) and a carefully selected handful of freight cars (say, box car, flat, covered hopper, hopper). Build your interpretive experience around how these cars and the things they carried built the community. What cam in the boxcar, and what local businesses was it delivered to? What came in the covered hoppper? Was it fertilizer that made continued farming possible on the depleted soils of the region? What kind of people rode the coach? Where were they going? Why?

In short, I would select the smallest possible set of (expensive to maintain and restore) rolling stock as possible, and put the rest of my effort and funds into oral history in the community, collecting archival materials, collecting relevant uniforms and tools, building compelling exhibits, docent training, rest rooms, and everything else that touches on the educational and museum experience.

In short--I would build a museum, not a train collection.

EUREKA!!!!! YES!!!

Howard P.

The only "dismay" I have would not be that the RCT&HS gains a piece, but that the RR Museum of Pennsylvania LOSES a (representative?) Reading piece. The museum in question is the RR Museum of PENNSYLVANIA, *not* the "Pennsylvania Railroad" Museum, and it needs to maintain a diversity of representation to fulfill its mission properly--meaning it NEEDS some Reading rolling stock, just as the Nickel Plate Berkshire that some folks seem eager to shove out the gate (because it's not PRR) belongs there as well.

Read Brother Ledbetter's advice well, and take it to heart. A huge collection of Reading rolling stock is only "impressive" if it actually impresses, and not just the scrap merchant for the potential scrap value. Some of the stuff the RCT&HS has done over the years--Reading FP7's I could ride to Mt. Caramel Junction behind in 1995, Alco/GE/EMD lash-ups for the Blue Mt. & Reading Railfan Weekends in the 1980s, fan trips with the RDC's, etc.--impressed me to no end. But, as with a great many such organizations now, the "glory days" of easy main line excursions and the like are over, leaving folks to look skeptically at what could look increasingly like "Larry's Truck & Electric, Pennsylvania location."

Back to the original question: Should your mission statement be broad enough to try and be a "national" museum of anything that doesn't have a very local focus? (A National Edison Museum at his New Jersey labs? Sure. A National Microsoft Museum outside of Redmond, Washington, or even there? Puh-lease.) Or should your focus be on the impact of said railroad in your home state, and the railroads with which it partnered in the region? Altoona, for example, has a wonderful Railroaders Memorial Museum, but it doesn't really strive to be the museum of railroad workers nationwide, even though it could do that very job well--its focus is on Altoona's workers and the PRR.