Matt, you must have one heck of a boiler reference library!

For the education of the uninformed, like myself, what is the preferred method to caulk staybolts? I've seen the term before, but was wondering what was used.

Again very much appreciated for sharing. Would there be a difference in welded vs. threaded bolts? I hope that isn't too vague of a question, but not all stays are threaded in a patch are they?

Home Depot/Lowes - Liquid nails. :P

A caulking iron. The word caulk has multiple meanings, all that have something to do with making joints tight against leaks. In ship, tank, and boiler construction, it doesn't involve the use of sealant, rather one piece of metal, or both, are displaced so that they fit tightly together. Basically, a tool is driven into the steel to displace it into any gaps, leaving the metal at the interface under compression.

First, caulking is more like voodoo blacksmith magic than anything. Dozens of techniques, all are successful if executed properly with the proper tools. I have seen a futile attack on mudring rivets with a Snap-On auto body air tool. Just not enough "oomph" there.

Second, flexing in threaded vs. welded staybolt installation. Should be no noticeable difference if a threaded bolt is hammered to fill the threaded hole as per industry standards. This is comparing full penetration welds.

If it is a fillet welded bolt, then the free length of the staybolt, the "l" value, will increase by about an inch for rigid staybolts. This length value is cubed in most of the deflection equations. Not sure how many of the fillet welded staybolt advocates have recognized the significance of this.
4^3=64 5^3=125

Had a request for the full Flannery booklet. It can be downloaded via the link in this post:


viewtopic.php?f=1&t=28659&p=136777#p136777

Hi Matt,

Do you know of a source of material on the stress analysis on the staybolts that the Canadians used in the locomotive on the Gettysburg RR in 1995? I wonder how that pattern performed in daily service, particularly in allowing deflection of the firebox side sheets.

Thanks,
Robby

Robby,

Canadian Pacific crown stay styles is not relevant to this thread. It was dealt with in detail in the NTSB report which can be downloaded.

Matt

Robby,

It was my great fortune to actually handle the crown sheet of the locomotive I think you have suggested in your post. I will tell you this as I have been in the fire box of said example and I have seen the crown sheet of said example.

The side sheets were fine (except that they were too thin to start with). In fact, if you had seen the side sheets, and not the crown, you would have thought nothing ever happened. It is my own honest opinion that the method and form of attachment of the crown sheet in that boiler in part saved that machine from getting any closer to the moon than it did! In effect, Robby, the crown attachments allowed a zipper effect that actually slowed and then stopped the sheet from completely coming apart.

I actually think it would make a great discussion.....so long as......names, places and personal feelings are left out. It is a very interesting study in failure and one you would enjoy, Robby. The problem with talking at Getty's is that all too quickly we start talking about people.....not events and not mechanics....so if you go there, be careful!

Kindly,

......

Seems the flow of things has been altered somewhat, rendering Matt's pictorial contribution fatherless now. Pity - it did answer one very good question and one that needn't have been asked, but one good question out of 2 is a very good average given the amount of foamy drivel in other threads lately.

Yes, fillet welded stays are "longer" than FP welded stays or threaded stays. It makes some considerable difference.

Please keep up technical stuff - and if we're going to discuss grammar and spelling, probably an engineering site isn't the best place for it.

dave

I appreciate the discussion and the book references. How about posting; plates c,d, fig. 53...

Wikipedia; Iron or steel ship caulking;

In riveted steel or iron ship construction, caulking was a process of rendering seams watertight by driving a thick, blunt chisel-like tool into the plating adjacent to the seam. This had the effect of displacing the metal into a close fit with the adjoining piece.

To all who read this post,

Please understand there is a lot of thought that has gone into this post and there is a moderator who has reviewed it and approved it prior to posting. I want to thank our moderators for taking the time to do this thankless job as moderating is not an easy job and I am sure this board takes up a lot of their time.

Robby

Dear Matt

Thanks that is what I was thinking. The Canadian design has some unique characteristics that were very forward thinking and I often wonder if we retrofitted this design into other locomotives that the design would help reduce some potential liabilities. I am very worried that too many people are looking for cheep and easy approaches/fixes and not thinking through the possible scenarios a boiler may face and how it is going to react to them.

Robby

Dear John

At what point did I discuss a particular locomotive? The only question I wanted to discuss is the one I asked. I think due to the passage of time it is lost on too many people that the design the Canadians developed may have saved the opportunity to operate locomotives for the tourist/preservation industry in this country. It seems to me that we owe the engineering team a level of gratitude.

The recent conversations on the topic of fillet welded staybolts it makes me wonder if the great promotion behind them isn’t the perceived ease of installation? Given recent conversations at with many involved in the industry I have come to the conclusion that the engineering mindset needed for a long term view of steam locomotive safety was largely lost a long time ago.

I wonder how much complaining happened on the floor about the more intricate work to set up this behavior as seen on the locomotive used on that fateful day on the Gettysburg as described in the NTSB report. But in the end the design and craftsmanship worked and many people are alive today because of it. If we as an industry continue to look only at cost and doing things the cheep way we will cause something to happen that none of us want but we may very well have asked for out of ignorance.

On the names, places and personal feeling topic I believe that this industry suffers too much from hero worship and some of these very same heroes are so busy being important that they do our cause more harm than good. What is even more frustrating is when others cover up the issues and continue to promote these people of little social value. I know the damage in some cases was irreparable and groups have suffered because of it. A little humility and self questioning and a certain level of ethics on everyone’s part can we improve this industry but I do not see that happening. Until one has a source to find out who puts on just a great show and who truly understands the business we will continue to have these issues.

Robby Peartree

Mr. Peartree, et al;

This shall be my last post on the subject as we have come full circle and the issue never changes. There are a handful of people who do not like fillet welded stay bolts and the same group seems to want to blame me solely for the advent of this technology. I am not to blame and therefore, as this thread seems to only want to debate the issue to no end, I am electing to leave the discussion. Before I make my departure, may I resolve a few issues to which you have taken the thoughtful time to present.

There was a time about twelve or more years ago where I truly felt that the ESC was a group of people who had intentionally placed themselves on high pedestals, pounding their chests and imposing their dictatorial rule over our industry. Not long after I came to the conclusion that these men were just "show boaters" (much the same as your post has made them out to be), I joined the group for one of their meetings. The place was Durango, CO. The evening after my first meeting as a "side liner" at the ESC, I was kindly asked by a few members (Dave Griner being one of them) to join the group for dinner. The meeting that day was heated. I remember strong debates over the new 1472 day rules, verbiage and content. I actually thought that people would walk out and never come back, it was that heated.

That evening at dinner, I saw the same group of people sit together, debate the issues and come to a resolve of the questions at hand. I learned quickly that the original group of ESC members had an intense passion for the following, in this order: Industry Safety, Preservation of Standard Practice, Prolonging of an industry that no longer makes the tools needed to sustain itself. In not a single meeting I have attended since then, have I ever felt that this group, or the current ASME Group (which I am part of) has deviated from the above points of interest, Safety remaining the number one issue.

Robby, it is easy to say that many on the ESC or ASME are show boaters, but, you know what Robby, come to the meetings, join us for dinner, sit in the debates and follow the discussions. Robby, there is sufficient humility in the room to go around. I have had to learn and grow, I have seen others learn and grow. I have had to change my mind, I have seen others change their minds. The issue at hand Robby is this: Those of us making the changes, writing the rules and pushing this industry are those who have the ability to put our money where our mouths are. We show up, we debate, we discuss, we humble ourselves, we bend and we break. Those who attend most often see this happen on a daily and weekly basis.

No, fillet welded stay bolts are not about the money. Yes, safety has been my number one concern as it is the concern of the rest of the group. The truth and reality behind it, Robby; Fillet welded stay bolts have proven themselves all over the world, in more locomotives than ever had threaded bolts. The reality is, Robby, our industry today produces the machines and tools needed to make the installation easy and safe. The reality is, we have seen as many poorly installed threaded bolts as we have poorly installed fillet welded bolts and truth be known, a poor fillet welded bolt is still safer than a poor threaded bolt installation.

As I have in the past and as I will again, for the last time on this thread, encourage you, Mr. Peartree and the rest of you watching this thread to come to the meetings, join the debate, write us emails and send your comments. Robby, if you have valid concerns about the fillet welded bolt, send them directly to us. But the truth is guys, debating the issue here is not gaining any of us ground.

Myself and many others of these groups are watching. If you want to join the debate, contact me or the others and send the information that you have. My contact information can be found in the link that contains my signature. I will be honest and as humble as possible in this next comment. Robby, not you, or any one of the others who want to criticize me for fillet welded bolts has EVER initiated a conversation with me about it. I can not speak for others of the ESC or ASME, but I doubt highly that they have received comments either as we normally share the comments we get with each other. It seems that we simply want to make each other look bad on the forums, not really debate the issues. Thus, I am leaving this conversation as I have others until we can sit, in person and clear the air. I will be at the next set of meetings....will you? If you can not make it, my contact info is found below....I will wait, as I have in the past for some back door communication on the subject. My door is open!

Many thanks to all of you who do send me back door notes in support of safety, preservation and fillet welded bolts!

Kindly,

My reading was that calculations for fillet welded bolts needed to take into consideration the total distance between the welds, rather than just the width of the water space alone - not an indictment of the filet welding concept in its entirety. I'd like very much to know more about how to correctly do calculations on Tross bolts installed with fillet welds in order to understand how they compare with ordinary screwed bolts or FP welded bolts in identical boilers. There are more right ways than one to get any job done, but sometimes one way may suit one particular set of circumstances better than others.

dave