Following along the lines of comments by robertmacdowell above, when the town says it will sell the equipment without a bill of sale or transfer of title, I assume that is because the town does not own the equipment, and therefore cannot transfer title to it. But if they can’t provide a bill of sale to document the transaction, how can there be a legal sale? Wouldn’t most potential buyers decline the purchase if the seller were unwilling to provide a bill of sale?

Our administrator has been ill and it doesn't look like she will be able to continue. We are trying to get all of the passwords so we can get a new adminstrator.

There is just so much that has transpired that I don't think I can keep it in the correct order. But I can answer specific questions if asked.

Later!
Mr. Ed

With a bit of google searching and a review of NJ laws and regulations, items left on public property, in this case township property, can be sold by the township after notice has been given to the owner of those items to remove those items within some period of time.

Take an automobile for example parked on township property. The township has to make a best effort to locate the owner and to give them an opportunity to remove that automobile, again in writing. After a certain amount of time if the automobile is not removed, then the automobile is considered abandoned. The township can then remove it and sell it at public auction.

Its fairly simple and is done all the time by every municipality. Here in Wall Township, NJ head into the police station and look for the auction list. You can pick up a decent car or a bicycle at a very good price.

I can understand how municipalities can sell items they don’t own if the owner does not remove the item from property owned by the municipality. But do they routinely do this without conveying a title or bill of sale? In other words, does the buyer hand over the money and just walk away with the item with no record of the transaction?

In order for the seller to legally sell the item under these circumstances, he or she must satisfy certain requirements such as proper notice to the owner. How can a potential buyer be certain that the seller has met these legal requirements?

I am just curious about what will actually happen when this equipment is put up for sale on this basis. Say that there is a market of buyers for this equipment at the seller’s price. Will these buyers simply not care if they have no record of the transaction or conveyance of a title?

I certainly would not buy it on that basis. If fact, if the seller offered the equipment to me free of charge, and even delivered it to my property free of charge, I would not take it if there would be no record of the transaction. I can’t imagine a scrapper taking the equipment without a conveyance of title.

Two thoughts:

1) This issue of "proof of ownership" has been discussed and debated before, here and elsewhere. There is no titling or proof of ownership process for rolling stock that I am aware of; thus about the ONLY real proof of ownership is a bill of sale or a legal judgement or lien. For the most part, the only "proof" is someone's word. And that's a dangerous situation, be it a Fairmount track car or C&O 614.

2) I have personally seen at least one instance of a railroad station "sold" at public auction for lack of payment of property taxes, only to discover during post-sale title searches and closing that the town/county had been billing Penn Central instead of Conrail for over a decade. The sale was voided (it didn't hurt that the buyer was a lawyer across the street!), and proper purchase negotiations initiated and eventually concluded. I'm positive, given the number of stations and pieces of property that fell under Penn Central and other Conrail predecessors, as well as other mergers like Chessie, CSX, NS, BN, etc., that this scenario has been replayed thousands of times across the nation.

Unfortunately for this group, given both aspects of this situation, it's more than likely that whoever has the most to spend on lawyers will win out in this situation. Our only hope can be that no one wants the stuff except preservationists, and the rolling stock garners paltry $1 bids.... but given scrap prices, not bloody likely........

Given this, I suggest: Any other interested groups should prepare to bid for the most relevant pieces, most likely the wooden boxcar and tank car............

Yes I understand that no actual title exists that can be transferred and constitute proof of ownership. And I suppose a bill of sale would not actually constitute proof of ownership if no legal title existed in the first place. So what I am wondering is whether a buyer would get a receipt from the seller that would at least prove who the buyer bought the item from.

Maybe when they say no bill of sale or legal title will be provided, they are not saying that no receipt will be provided. So I have to assume that a buyer would be given a receipt for the purchase. Although, it seems to me that the receipt would amount to a bill of sale, so I am not sure what they intend by their language.

JR has posted evidence NJ laws which allow for the sale of abandoned motor vehicles once a specific process has been executed. Perhaps this process results in some form of "title" which is marketable at the subsequent auction. Perhaps he or somebody there can provide better information.

dave

Does an actual list of equipment exist? I see nothing on their website.

hey Les...

I will take a stab at it... as I was up there about three months ago... Here goes...

one GE centercab 45 tonner
a gondola
a flatcar
a PRR N5C cabin car ( caboose )
a PRR N6B cabin car ( well.. perhaps just the frame / trucks etc )
a CNJ caboose
a Tidewater small tank car
a PS1 40 foot boxcar
a PRR NX23 outside braced boxcar / mw car

Might have forgot something but I think that is a good effort... I am sure someone can add to it, if I forgot anything....

Hope that helps


Dean Levin

Dean,

It would appear the only thing you forgot was the former LV two bay hopper. The 40 PS1 box is I believe former Rock Island.

Kevin O

The roster as I see it:

Locomotive, GE 45 tonner, Roebling, I believe built 1939, #4, was first
diesel on site, replacing steam. Last running diesel at Roebling. Decent
shape.

Locomotive, GE 100 tonner, Roebling, 1960s vintage. Decent shape. It was started a couple of years ago at Pemberton.


1959 CR&IP 40' boxcar with it's original trucks still under it. Excellent
condition with complete work shop set up inside including tools, machinery,
insulation, heat/AC, etc. Outstanding car.

Tidewater tank car. This is one of the cars that had been at Bay Head, NJ. One went to NJMT, one to Strasburg, one to Pemberton via NJMT. Good condition, needs paint. I found a date of 1923 on line for a year that it was built.

Gondola, came from Roebling. Supposedly rare. Rough shape but complete. Year built is unknown.

LV Hopper car, came from Roebling. Two bay car with tapered sides at the
top. Rough shape but complete. Reportedly built 1938.

Flat car, came from Roebling as a wire or spool car. Rough but complete. Reportedly built 1904.

PRR N5C caboose, decent shape, body work done, but sitting for years with the windows missing. Complete, but I have never been in it to confirm.
PRR #478016, ex PC/CR #23147, built 1942.

PRR N6b caboose. One source shows it was built in 1904, another shows 1911. However, a third source shows these cars were built between 1914 to 1923. Number reported to be 19044. Only a chassis today which was blasted and painted. Chassis in great shape and compete. All metal parts are there along with some pieces of the wood body.

PRR NX23 caboose, This did come in from Altoona, PA. Had no
trucks nor draft gear, but they had trucks from Roebling to sit it on.
Reportedly converted from a boxcar in 1943. 75 PRR c.1912 X23 OB boxcars were converted to cabooses from May 1943 through early 1944. This is one of those cars.

CNJ wood caboose, identical to the one at NJMT. Reportedly #91291. Moved to Pemberton from Kirby's Mill, NJ. Started life as a boxcar, circa 1874 and converted to a caboose around 1900. Sister to caboose at NJMT. Actually in fairly good shape at this point for a car sitting outside. A boy Scout resided it as part of an Eagle Scout project. Interior is still
fairly original except for a mens and ladys room installed in one end. Even
with that mod, its in fairly decent shape in side.

Rail bus, 1930s? Used at Ft Dix? A post here on RyPN suggested that it may have been used by Trolley Valhalla or the Electric City Trolley Museum Association and may have been running at Tansboro, N.J. in the late 1960s.

I met with the township contact today on site. I have no idea if the auction will really happen or not, but just in case I plan to be there and if I can keep an item away from a scaper I'll give it a try. According to the township, several scrap dealers have been in contact with them.

The township is considered a "custodian" of the equipment at this point. They are working to address the many ownership questions they have received. I would STRONGLY encourage anyone with an interest in the whole collection or a portion of it to make immediate contact with the township and express interest. Make the issues know as to timing and funding. The township is as frustrated as any of us on this site.

J.R.

I've already shot off an email to the mayor. I tried to point out the good that the trust's presence has done for the township, but I highly doubt one email from some kid in New England will do any good... It's good to hear though that people in Pemberton's leadership may have second thoughts on the course that's being taken with the dispute. But, that's what I've gotten from the recent posts.

Dean, Kevin, J.R. -

Thanks very much for the info. Hopefully the group will get the disagreement settled and the equipment remain in place.

Les

I think we need to plan as though there will be no solution here. Plan for the worse case and get some folks together to keep the scrap folks at bay.

In conjunction with keeping the scrappers at bay:

I suggest that ANY such organization that has unquestionable rights to their tracks (ownership, paid lease, etc.) AND the room to park this equipment, even if only temporarily, make offers for "temporary parking" to the appropriate parties. The closer to Pemberton, the better.

The major issue in question here is showing a good-faith effort to "clean up the eyesore" and/or getting the stuff out in the allotted time. The rest is mere details.

There is one "preservation facility" in the Northeast that is currently "parking" three pieces for other preservation groups awaiting more favorable scheduling of long-haul trucking, making room at the destination, etc.--and a fourth piece is slated to arrive Saturday. The conditions for storage all include a formal provision that if the pieces are not removed or relocated within a specified period of time, they become the property of the hosting facility, to do with as they please.

Winslow Junction is literally "right down the road" but has had its own "NIMBY" problems. The Belvedere-Delaware? Cape May Seashore Lines? SMS Services? Black River & Western?