Despite how we may personally feel about the legend of Casey Jones ability to run on time or Death Valley Scotty's record breaking run on the Santa Fe, the fact is that running fast was encouraged by the times. The public was fascinated by the railroads ability for speed while distance between little towns that stretched across the west became smaller. The railroads were happy to oblige.

Today, your typical tourist train runs about 15 MPH. How can we make something like the real story of Casey Jones relevant to the Jonesville Local? A lot of the equipment that survives today was built for rough, high speed service. While I am not trying to change how fast our trains go, how can we illustrate to our guests the excitement of high speed or long distance running that excited our grandparents? How can we make our 15 MPH trip for 3 miles relate to the push for high speed passenger trains in the future?

"While I am not trying to change how fast our trains go, how can we illustrate to our guests the excitement of high speed or long distance running that excited our grandparents?"--John Hillier

I don't think you can, at least not with the "typical" (if there is such an animal) heritage road we can get, although with good track and the right equipment I can see something like a Pennsylvania Trolley Museum at Washington, Pa. or the Western Railway Museum in California doing this for interurbans. On the other hand, a "Class I Tourist Railroad" (my label for a regular or semi-regular main line excursion with authentic equipment) could reveal this thrill from the past.

We don't have anything quite like this in the world that I know of, although a number of operations have elements of it, most notably the Cumbres & Toltec and the Durango & Silverton (relatively long distance operation with mostly authentic equipment, regular schedule), and the Rocky Mountaineer (privately owned, regularly scheduled, runs on trackage rights on a Class I in scenic territory to travel destinations). Ross Rowland's New Jersey excursion operations in the past also had pieces of this (semi-regular schedule, steam operation, speed); his current Greenbrier Express project could have similar potential if he ever gets to exercise a steam option. I certainly experienced this thrill with Rowland's 2101 on the Chessie Steam Special's trip up and back on the New River in 1977. Others would point out the fast running that has been made over the years with 844, 4449, 765, and others, sometimes with authentic consists. A notable example was the late era of the Canadian National's steam program, which had 6060 running on a scheduled passenger train to Niagara Falls.

I recall the Blue Mountain & Reading had some regular fast running, and had a wonderful authentic feel with steam engines on Pullman green cars, especially when 2102 was running. The rapid rail clicks from jointed track were a part of the experience as well. The only flaw was the lack of turning facilities at each end, which meant running tender-first at speed, not quite fitting the image we carry in our minds (yes, I know, a bit of nitpicking. . .) What ever happened to that operation?

Perhaps the closest thing anywhere to this would be the "Woltizn Experience" in Poland. This is possible not only with the efforts of its promoters, but also because the PKP's management is enthusiastic about the project, which makes them cooperative, largely because they become stakeholders in their heritage project. This is a world of difference compared with anything I've ever seen here among Class I roads, and is also in contrast to the relatively recent decision by the Chinese to end main line steam, in which part of the motive was a perception by the politicians that steam operations made China look like a "backward" country.

Those Chinese officials are not alone; how many times did the late David P. Morgan try to urge 1970s rail officials to welcome steam as a way to illustrate the contrast of the past with the present? How many rail officials today seem to be "afraid" of old equipment and passenger operations?

Alternately, how do you acquire a section of railroad of sufficient length to do this (perhaps up to a division in length, or about 100 miles), in decent condition, with a sufficient freight traffic base to pay for the track maintenance to the standard you will need, that is also scenic, has several potential destinations for passengers, and also has one or both ends at or near traffic sources?

In short, how do you recreate a Class I road from 60 to 100 years ago--and make it pay?

And as a corollary to this, how long does the line have to be? How complete does it have to be, in terms of stations, an EBT or Steamtown roundhouse at one end and a turning facility at the other? How scenic does it have to be in view of its "theme" of speed?

Fast running with heritage equipment, as a rule, disappeared in the United States (and perhaps Canada) after the NS 611 Dismal Swamp derailment of 1987. Thereafter on NS, the official employee timetables had a line restricting all steam to a maximum of 40 mph.

I firmly believe that the "last hurrah" of "old-style" speed running anything close to a "Death Valley Scotty" or "Casey Jones" experience was the utterly spectacular runs of PRR "7002" and 1223 on the Amtrak main lines in 1985-87, with some remarkably high speeds achieved Harrisburg-Lancaster with the Strasburg crews in the cab. We just might see a galloping 4-8-4 on the main lines elsewhere in the future, but unless someone pulls off a miracle with the likes of Leviathan at the Pueblo AAR test track, for the likes of Atlantics and wooden cars, that was IT. The End. Finis.

Left out of the above discussion was British main-line steam excursions. I clocked both a Gresley A4 and a LMS "Duchess" doing a sustained 80+, with a burst of 90 in the case of the A4, on lines in North Wales in September 1991, pre-Privatisation. LNER V2 4771 Green Arrow achieved similar speeds as well on the North Wales Coast Line.

We have to watch how we compare things here. Operating rules were vastly different 100 years ago vs today. You had record runs and/or the engineer pushed speed to make-up time on late runs. This isn't the rule today. As far as steam runs today you have two different animals. One is the tourist line running steam and the other is a mainline steam excursion. The tourist line has a very finite distance to run and regardless of the track condition, the tourist wants to enjoy the moment and doesn't want a 60 min ride end in 20 min for what it takes to get to the tourist line and the cost of the ride. As for the few who get to enjoy mainline excursions, these are typically at track speed. The UP consistantly runs their two engines at 60-70 mph (watch the videos of the pacers), NS ran their excursions at speed up until the end, and Ross Rowland and company ran their excurions at track speed in the northeast. So yes it can be done, but on the short haul it's all about enjoying the ambiance and the moment.

Fred

No, they didn't. Not officially, at least. The timetable--driven by the insurance policies--dictated a maximum of 40 mph in 1989 and beyond; in addition, 611 had an additional speed restriction on curves. Excursions that used to at least have an air of speed became somewhat plodding exercises in daisy-picking. I had the chance to pace a few NS trips before and after the Dismal Swamp wreck; I saw speeds in excess of 55 mph before and speeds 40 and under afterwards. Chasing NS excursions got much easier and "productive" with the 40-mph restriction, let me tell you.

Another issue is "what are your customers expecting?"

In the case of mainline excursions in the UK, they expect to do "passenger train speeds," which implies 80 mph, etc.

At Pennsylvania Trolley Museum, we have cars that are capable of speeds MUCH higher than our timetable limit of 20 mph. What is our audience? It's primarily families, with an emphasis on those with small children along. Would they enjoy a ride in a PST "80" car at its top speed? Probably a few would, but the majority would rather have a comfortable ride that lasts long enough for them to feel they got value for their admission and to have experienced the "trolley era" as we interpret it.

Then there's the related issue of beating up elderly equipment unnecessarily. Keeping 80 to 100 year old trolleys in proper running order is tough enough without subjecting them to runs at their maximum capability.

Thus we feel that what we're doing is relevant to OUR visitors' expectations. Maybe 1% of our visitors are the die-hard traction fans that itch to put our PST 78 to its maximum performance. But we'll be content to fulfill the expectations of the other 99% instead.

Each organization has a mission statement. Not everyone is in business to run mainline trains and most of the tourist railroads are running on branchlines. There are many stories of high speed steam in the days gone by and there are still a few places and chances to experience it to this day. There are a few tourist railroads that give the feel of covering time and space at a real pace. Steamtown, Western Maryland Scenic, and Grand Canyon (I know steam is limited here) all come to mind. Getting on a steam era coach and traveling at 35-40MPH and going "somewhere" might be as close as we can come and probably does as decent job of portraying how people traveled in the steam era.

One place that could do it is Chicago's Museum of Science and Industry, with their Pioneer Zephyr exhibit, because it's all hydraulics and rear projection movie screens anyway; no insurance problems. Unfortunately, while the "view" out the windows looks like the train is going fast, the sound and motion effects feel like maybe 20-25 MPH. I suppose they didn't want to shake the historic train to pieces, and market research probably revealed that the visitors wanted an experience that felt like what they expected a train ride to feel; not a vibrating motel bed.

I don't know how fast, but the Keighley and Worth Valley runs commuter trains on commuter train schedules behind steam just as if Beeching had never been released from hell. Intervals between stations require rapid acceleration and braking, not time to get up to express train speed in between, but then again what was more representative - the local or the express?

We have enough steel cars and modern northerns to do mainline express speed excursions but do we have the need to provide them?

I'd rather - if we are talking speed here - recreate the Andrews Raid, probably on the Georgia Northeastern since CSX tends to be a bit busy, as a special event using replica rolling stock with the addition of such things as air brakes for safety's sake. I reckon riding a flimsy wooden boxcar with holes punched in it behind a new 1855 4-4-0 at 60 MPH - even 45 - would be something not easily forgotten, if not terrifying.

Scotty is possible at least in part - several of the beautiful long legged prairies are displayed here and there on the old Santa Fe. Coming up with a good consist might be the problem, apart from the obvious questions of money, permission and liability. Might be best to limit the trip to a long desert division between urban centers.

dave

I'm not sure how you capture the excitement of long distance running. Dinner trains come close with the dining car experience. But what about the sleeping car experience? How do you interpret the experience of an overnight experience on the train?

Regarding "high speed", I observed that the earlier program at Steamtown with the regular run out to Moscow was a decent effort to provide a bit of sustained running "at speed" (defined as above 15 mph in my book). I am unsure as to if that ride is still offered on a regular basis. Above that, I would ask why is high speed necessary at all?

Likewise, on the other end of the speed spectrum, none of the traditional trolley museums offers a true interpretation of street-running, with cross traffic, double parking and other disruptions. The list could go on.

I recall operating cars on our semi-annual "festival" days in the late 1980s with passenger counts of 1200-1500 over a five-hour period with 10-minute headways. At the end of the shift I was beat and had a new appreciation for the real work that our volunteer retired transit workers did on a daily basis "back in the day". Our operations pattern and workload on those days was truly interpretive. I'm not sure that the visitors realized what they were experiencing. And I know I did not have time to tell them as the day went on.

Just some musings on the topic.

Wesley

It's not uncommon for visitors to say two things, often together. "Why don't you go faster?" and "Why isn't the ride longer?" Obviously it's tough to do both, unless you want to invest in additional trackage.

My typical response to "How fast does the train go?" is "You've heard of 'high speed trains', right?" "Yes" "Well, this isn't one of them..."

The one tourist operation I rode that came close in regular operation was the Royal Hudson. I think she may have topped out at about 40, but it sure was a big improvement over 15, and really felt like it replicated steam in regular mainline running, if not exactly a Milwaukee Hiawatha.

SP 4449 routinely hits 60 mph or close to it on her outings, but those are rare and tend to be limited to hard core railfans due to the ticket prices.

Back to the original question. How do you get folks to understand that trains were the "high speed transportation" of the day, like airlines are today? Well, I guess an interpretive display would be the best method. "A trip to the nearest large town by horse took six hours, the train could do it it in under two..." will probably bring the point home.

That's probably more effective than a ride behind the Willamette (essentially a Shay) would be. ;)

I think Mr. Harbison's on the right track, to coin a phrase. In discussing train travel of the past with folks in the present day, it's worth pointing out that a person can walk about 3-4 miles per hour, while a horse might double that. When the railroad came along, even speeds of 20-25 mph seemed downright breath-taking. In pre-railroad days, travel more than 10 miles from home was quite an undertaking, and for a farmer or businessman, the train meant their produce or goods could be easily transported over great distances. It's not too much a stretch to say the impact of the railroad 100 or 150 years ago was akin to that of the Internet today.

On a somewhat related note...

I've spent the last couple weeks hanging around with some Tall Ships, doing photography. As part of the tour, the crew sings "Sea Shanties" and tells the public about the history contained in the songs.

This brought two things to mind.

First of all, you could easily do the same with railroad songs. I know that some railroad have music on board, but do any of you actually use it as part of the interpretation for the guests?

Secondly, I also thought about songs and stories. We had sea shanties, songs about trains, songs about airplanes, even songs about long haul truckers. But is anybody writing songs about today's heros? Do we even have heros any more? Obviously the military, police and fireman are, but other than that, what is there? Heard any good new folk songs lately?

"Bob ran a mighty good website, a really fine webmaster was he... He had the fastest server in town, gathered code from all around, and served the quickest pages on all the net!" Just doesn't seem quite the same, does it?

(Oddly enough, I have a folk song written about me, but it's done in the classic railroad tradition, and talks about how I met my wife at the railroad and saved a train full of passengers, including her, during a storm. OK, the "saved the train" is a bit of hyperbole, but it is loosely based on a true story...)

At the Western Railway Museum our maximum speed limit is 30 mph. A 9.5 mile round trip takes about 45 minutes that also includes time stopped speaking about things along the railroad and allowing visitors to get off and take photos before the car starts back to the musuem.

I have gotten favorable replies from questions about speed by pointing out that 30 mph was the top speed of our very old (1904) wooden interurban cars and that "We don't want the ride to be too short." I also point out that these interurban cars were competing with a horse and wagon with top speed of much less than 10 mph.

So playing the authenticity card works.

"Excuse me Mr conductor, can't you go any faster?"

"Yes'm, I can, but I'm supposed to stay with the trolley.."