I measure the record of D&S by their cooperation with Eureka and #315. If they really did not care, would they bother with these visitors?

Yup, but some folks here can't see the forest for the trees...

They pay for those locos to come to Railfest because it makes them money, or they would not do it. It just so happens that we like that part of their attempts to promote the RR, (marketing) and tie that into making more money.

OR maybe the just do it out of the goodness of their hearts. nope.

I'm not knocking a good business plan or attitude, far from it.

I stopped going to Durango, I would hate to have to stop going to Chama for the same reasons, but I probably will. But then again, I'm a railfan and I obviously I just can't see the forest for the tress, or the gaurds through the fences.

I like the C&TS because of what its not, more than for what it is.

If the D&S stopped making money, it would no longer run. But I don't go to Durango either. I go to Silverton. Lovely place to stay. I'd rather walk into the canyon & photo the trains than deal with Durango's californication. Also, in the Bradshaw days, I askedthe security guard if I could take a few photos & he allowed me to do do under his escort. Never hurts to ask permission when on private property.

There has been a great deal of discussion on the Narrow Gauge Discussion Forum about this. Most of it has been positive. Mr. Harper has to want to do this and be enthusiastic about it, or as a businessman, he would not have even thrown his hat in the ring.

As to fences, I suspect that this will ultimately resolve around the liability issues. Mr. Bradshaw had other assets to protect beyond the D&S and Mr. Harper does also.

On the properties that he owns, he assumes all of the liability, and I am sure that his accountants and insurance people have made the decision that access for us fans is not worth the risk of a multi million dollar lawsuit.

As a contract operator in Chama, the liability issues may be different or not. If he sets up a different company that will not put the rest of his companies at risk, and gets the states to assume the liabilities, maybe there will be no fences. If he has to assume the liability for a stupid railfan climbing on a boxcar and falling off and being paralyzed, I don't blame him for the fences.

The courts have been remarkably lenient on trespassers and hard on railroads in the past. Remember the case of the two boys who climbed a fence on which were posted no trespassing signs, and then grabbed the overhead wire while standing on the roof of a steel boxcar? The railroad was deemed at fault.

If I have to choose between no railroad at Chama or Durango, or anywhere else, or fences, security, and all, I will chose fences.

One other issue also comes to mind. Railroad museums, and other historic preservation sites are more and more becoming targets for scrap thieves and vandals. While Chama is not the urban metropolis that Durango is, scrap thieves are everywhere and the loss of priceless artifacts may be more than the cost of the fencing in the end.

First, I would be careful about using the Narrow Gauge Discussion Form as a source of “objective reporting” as they do not follow the standards of this board.

Second, early in the ownership of the D&S by Mr. Harper, Mr. Harper was discussing the Friends of the C&TS with one of the co-authors of the Historic Preservation Study and was envious of the C&TS for having such a support structure. He had hopes at that time for a similar group for the D&S.
Please consider these outtakes from a summary I received on his radio interview on Chama’s radio station.

“When asked about the role of the Friends of the C&TSRR (FOCTS), Harper responded that he expected it to be “quite intimate.” They have nothing of that size on the D&S. The FOCTS is a larger and more complicated group and he is very excited to work with them. The C&TS and FOCTS have many shared priorities, and their relationship will “grow and become stronger.”

The C&TS may well benefit from the type of planning and marketing the D&S has seen. The inability to come up with a master plan for the RR has hurt it. Perhaps Harper can restart that ball. If you look at Mr. Keller’s (owner of the first operator Scenic Railways) plan for the railroad it called for a number of possibilities for the RR. Just how ambitious is one to see it succeed?

Another outtake from the report I think you will be interested in is on profitability.
Making money with a historic railroad is very hard. Nevertheless preserving the history of the American railroads is very important. Harper emphasized his plans for increased special events to attract the younger generation of train riders. He noted that most D&S riders were oldsters like himself. He went on to mention the Polar Express, Thomas the Tank Engine, special events to “get ‘em on our trains.”

In the end we must realize that railfans are not the great cash cow for many organizations. In fact some would describe the relationship between historic railroads and the railfans showing up is kind of like your in-laws showing up. They can be a lot of trouble and little help.

How well the commission writes and enforces this contract will tell many of us how far they have developed. The devil should be in the details of the agreement which I do not think is public yet.

Robby Peartree

Robbie,

Please understand, I never said anything about "objective reporting" on the NGDF. I said that the opinions were generally positive. "Objective reporting" is in the eye of the beholder anyway, and opinions, are just opinions. Your excerpts from the radio interview back up my opinion that Mr. Harper is enthusiastic about operating the C&TS, and the majority of the opinions expressed in the NGDF are enthusiastic about having him as the operator.

I share the concern for the future of the C&TS and the possible loss of its authentic atmosphere as compared to the tourist style D&SNG. I prefer the EBT over Strasburg because EBT is far more authentic.

Here is a suggestion that will certainly be controversial: The D&S should buy some diesels and use them to operate most trains. Leave 3 steam engines. 1 or 2 to operate base service (3rd a protect/relief engine) with diesels to operate everything else. I am betting the vast majority of riders will not care or even notice. Charge a premium to ride steam. The cost savings will be substantial. The reduction in smoke in town will be a benefit as well. Eventually, it may be possible to dieselize entirely with little downside.

Concentrate steam at C&TS and thus draw more riders who want steam and authentic surroundings etc.

Maybe they will reconnect the two DRG segments. :-)

I like both RRs (C&TS and D&S) and have been riding both for many years.
Each has its pro's and con's, but the pro's side is much larger.

This certainly will be interesting to watch.
For one thing, I am hoping for a return to Pullman Green on C&TS passenger cars.
At the time the current red scheme was being planned, there were warnings that the red would fade towards pink, and it has.
Also, there is great opportunity now for more steam being restored.

I think there are a couple of facts about the C&TS situation are worth bearing in mind.

1. Mr. Harper has a contract to operate the railroad, period. He did not buy the C&TS, which remains the property of the two states, along with all the land, equipment, structures, and track thereon.

2. In signing this lease, Mr. Harper got some new partners: the C&TS Commissions, the states of New Mexico and Colorado, The State Historic Preservation Offices of the two states,and the National Park Service as overseers of the National Register of Historic Places and the National Historic Landmarks, under the auspices of the Secretary of the Interior.

I suspect Mr. Harper's wiggle room will be far less than commentators on both this forum and the NGDF seem to be assuming.

IMHO, of course

Mike

OK, the comment was made in jest, and I realize that it's about as likely to happen as NS converting 614 to bio-fuel and running it on stack trains. (Hey, it's already painted green, go eco-friendly and you're golden!)

Also, as others have pointed out, AHR has an operating contract, they didn't buy the railroad.

However... On a purely theoretical basis. Would this even be possible? How much of the grade remains intact? Has the property reverted to the landowners? Just how long of a segment is missing? (I know it's a pretty good distance...)

On the EBT, apparently there's some tiny chance they can put more of the line back in service. Is that a possibility here as well?

Yeah, I know, it will never happen... (Remember when they said that about rebuilding the Georgetown Loop bridge?)

I am not very familiar at all with what remains of the right-of-way between Chama and Durango. But I do know that a piece of ti runs through a Navajo reservation, and access is absolutely verboten. Sovereign nation status, you know.

Well, you'd simply have to get them on board with the project. Run trains to a native cultural center, museum, hotel, casino or whatever attraction they'd like to promote.

Heck, compared to the issues of raising funding, getting permits, property rights and dealing with not one but two state agencies, they'll only be a small part of the puzzle! ;)


- Bob

Did some posts get deleted?