This project will die the typical American railroad museum way of to much bureaucracy, infighting and differences of opinion.

I am in 100% support of this project, but its not gonna happen anytime soon. Not yet. We still have a long, long way to go in the preservation world.

Im all for dreaming though..

Im going to put on my lead coated asbestos suit now.

First with unemployment in America at over 9% why not look for Americans who want to work on it for a reasonable wage. The knowledge and equipment do exist here in America.

Second it is correct that the "Typical American Railroad Museum" does have too much infighting in it so keep it our of a museum and build it as a privately owned and operated locomotive. There are private owners of operating steam locomotives. Run it like a business and make the numbers work.

My experience has been anytime you make anything into a museum piece people come out of the cracks in the sidewalks telling you that everything you do is wrong. You will find out that you have the shade of paint a shade off, that rivet is in the wrong place, the letters don't look quite right, the whistle doesn't have the right tone , the bell bracket isn't the right one...

start building the right team and writing a good business plan. Go around and see who is out there doing it right and learn what they are doing.

Do some research first....how much of a customer bas would this "Business" have?


Jeff

Yes Market research is part of writing a business plan. Also will be researching government regulations, doing an accurate cost analysis, selling the idea to investors, knowing how much operating capital, the list goes on. This will also take much thinking outside the box for this group to find their niche in the business. Once again not imposable for them but may be difficult and a lot of hard work..

I think it's a great idea -it's something I'd love to see happen here. I wish you luck!

Stephen

I'm not going to throw a wet blanket on the idea. Those who want to operate steam in the future will need newer power available in coming years. However, I don't think that a for-profit model is the correct one for this project. I grew up in the days of Steam Tours and other ventures that hoped to make money operating steam for profit. I knew people who lost their investments on them. If you look at who has been generally successful in operating big steam independent of a railroad like UP over the past 30 years, it's been those organizations that are generally single-purpose not-for-profits, like Fort Wayne and the Friends of the 261. They have been able to raise the large amounts of money needed for near total rebuilds of their locomotives, deal with hosting railroads and museums, and successfully navigate the bureaucracies of the grant-giving world. That should be the model you adopt to organize and fund the effort.

With the former NYC now in the NS family, and their renewed interest in the operation of heritage steam over their lines, a "new" NYC Hudson might very well fit in with their plans for "Steam in the 21st Century". Good luck to you.

While I do think that this is a nice idea, and if a good business plan can be written for it I'm all for your project.

But not to stir any fires but have you given any consideration to NYC 3001? It would be nice to see her run, and could be restored at a smaller cost then building a new engine from scratch.

I think the whole point of this, should it get off the ground, is to recreate a lost locomotive. One which is probably the biggest missing link in WORLD steam preservation!
It's not just about running any steam loco- even if it is ex NYC.

Wes

I have to disagree that the 'nay sayers here suck'. If anything, many posters are too brutally honest, and that's from stubbing their collective toes on too many other projects that didn't work out. There are too many servicable locomotives that aren't run, when there are many unservicable locomotives that COULD run if the resources had been put toward them.

It's a bbiiiiiggggg project, but you know that saying about 'make no small plans'. Plan wisely, and plan long-term. And expect to be 50 when you're finished!

Nick

PaulWWoodring wrote;

“With the former NYC now in the NS family”

Well, just a slight correction, but I do believe that the majority of the former NYC is under CSX now. At least all of the “Water Level Route” from Cleveland to Buffalo and down along the Mohawk and Hudson rivers is CSX.

I have not detected much interest within CSX on “21st Century Steam”. But things can change.

Good luck.

Cheers, Kevin.

People said, “never going to happen” to the people who built Tornado in England. But then again, the talking started MANY years before the first rivet was pulled out of the bucket. And many more years passed until the first fire was lit.

I know personally that someone (who is not known in RR preservation circles) approached a Chinese company about building a Hudson, just for the heck of it. This was when new steam still being built in China. He was told it could be done but the finished product would be several million dollars. He wasn’t too deterred until he later heard that the builders would retain the tooling, forms and what have you to build another one later on. The idea that someone could walk in the next day and order a second one for a fraction of his cost was unacceptable, so he backed out and that was that. A few years ago I asked him why he went to such effort to get so far as to get a quote with what he said was adequate engineering information to build one from. He told me that his first memory in life was seeing one (a streamlined version) leaving a station under steam and he’d always wanted to see one again. He had (and probably still has) the money to do it but gave up on the dream many years ago. As far as I know, he might not have even run the thing had it been built. I have written about this before here and probably shouldn’t, because it was a huge secret at the time and I was asked not to put it out to the public as the guy isn’t known for anything doing with railroads.

That is true, edit to say "with parts of the former NYC..." I was thinking about Cleveland and West, where Hudsons also ran, but most of the classic photos of them were taken in the East. Still, even with a tenuous tie to NS there might be hope.

Okay...I have a couple of questions, and then a lot of comments. I hope you'll find them useful. I don't want to discourage you, rather I hope to assist you by directing your attention to issues that you've already encountered and more that you will, with absolute certainly, encounter in the future.

In your first post in this thread you say, "The Hudson Steam Locomotive Project is a serious project to build a new J-3 Hudson..." Then in the third paragraph of your message you say, "We know that in July we decided to build a J-1e. " and then further along you say, "We have since chosen a J-3 because we believe it will be better suited to modern realities for operating steam in the 21st Century"

This was quite confusing, and I assume that you are trying to relate that you first thought you would build a J-3, then decided on a J-1 and then changed your minds again back to a J-3? You should be careful, in writing public pronouncements for your group to take time to decide what it is you wish to convey, and then to do so concisely and lucidly. Any confusion engendered by your writing will reflect badly on your group and project, so it is best to avoid this, a priori.

I would also urge you to have a clear understanding of what you are about to undertake. First of all, whatever you end up building almost certainly will not be a J-3 Hudson. It will be a modern steam locomotive that strongly resembles a J-3 Hudson. To claim that you're building a J-3 would essentially mean that you're using the same construction techniques, materials and design that were used in the original. Want to try to do that? Good luck finding someone that can pour the cast frame of the J-3a in this day and age.

You might find it instructive to read the Wikipedia article about the construction of the A4 Tornado that took 15+ years to accomplish. What they ended up with was a new locomotive that looked (more or less) and sounded (quite a bit) like an A4. When confronted by railfans who loudly announce that "that is NOT an A4", their carefully prepared reaction was "Well, yes it is. This is what the logical progression in design of the A4 would have been had it continued in production. You might want to try to practice that in front of a mirror for a bit so you can say the J-3a equivalent convincingly, because the rivet counters are going to savage you (or try to).

Now...on to the good stuff. Before you turn a wrench, spend a dollar on materials, or commit to a vendor, you should have some goals (which may be non-obvious to you at this point). Here's an axiom that holds true for any large construction project and is equally as true for locomotives.

It is insanely, miserably expensive to change your mind in mid-locomotive.

If you plan, for example to have Datong Foundry in Xian, China cast you a frame for your locomotive, and that later proves impractical, every assumption you made about what you can do as a result of that frame is now suspect. Going to change to another foundry? Or have a built up frame made. Or what? What impacts will this have going forward? Etc. Plan your construction project with great care. Planning is not fun, not edifying, and in the short term not very rewarding. But it will save you money, pain and bandaids in the long run. Try your best to make sure the choices you make will actually work before you try to implement them, because if you're wrong you're spending money for nothing.

Look at every choice your group makes with a jaundiced eye. Words like "Oh sure!" or "No problem!" or "We can do that!" should be instantly suspect.

Also understand that what you're doing is very, very important to you and to the people who join your project, but may be anything but important to bystanders, locals, railroad officials and owners of things you need.

Don't ever assume that because of the "historical importance" of your project people are going to leap all over themselves to assist you.

Here's some things that I can assure you that you DON'T know at this point, but should know, if not now, real, real soon. Assumptions are not allowed. Because anything you assume will probably be fiction 10 years or more down the road when your locomotive is ready.

First, ugly point: If you have an operable steam locomotive, you still need a place to run it, rolling stock to pull behind it, people to staff it and infrastructure to support it.

Can you honestly say, publicly or privately, "Yup, we've talked with John Doe at XYZ Railroad and Laundry, Inc and they've agreed to allow us to run on their railroad provided we meet certain standards, have $HUGE insurance coverage, and find the bosses wife a good bottle of Chardonnay"?

Probably not. Don't assume that because Sandberg can run 261 in a lot of places you'll get the same consideration. 261 has something you don't have, won't have and will likely have difficulty obtaining: (pardon the pun) a track record. 261's maintenance and operational history are impeccable. The maintenance and operational history of your J-3A are a complete unknown. It has none. So you can anticipate that the places you might wish to run will lack enthusiasm for your project. This can be overcome. There are people out there who are easily identifiable and can help you understand how to do this. You should talk to them.

I'll deal with the subject of rolling stock in my next installment.

Stephen,

It is obvious that you can’t make any assumption about the course of development, future operation, etc., and expect the terms of those assumptions to be secure. So the solution is simply to not make any assumptions. All you can do is go forward with your best judgment. Otherwise, if you believe you must make assumptions for this to proceed, and if you believe that no assumptions are possible, then you are stuck and nothing will go forward.

Certainly what you are proposing will be a major challenge, and there are a thousand reasons to conclude that it can’t be done. I suggest that you not bother getting your feet wet by joining organizations, working your way from small things up to bigger things, learning about steam, engineering, regulations, etc. As a leader of this effort, you won’t have time for all those little steps. It is too big to start at the bottom and work your way up. For this to succeed, it needs a few leaders with the vision and the ability to sell the idea and raise the money. Do that and get good at it. If you do enough of that, everything else will follow and take care of itself.

Pretty good advice, Ron. As told to me by a successful businessman a few years ago- Work ON the business, not IN the business.

Regards
Wes