Orlando's Church St. Station Frisco 0-6-0 & cars for sale

Alexander D. Mitchell IV · **Posted:** Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:11 am

Reposted from Trains Newswire; don't blame me for the short notice or for their wanting them gone by the end of the month. I seem to recall the Church Street Station developers had many more cars stashed out near the airport back in the 1980s; any ideas on what happened to them?:

Quote:

ORLANDO, Fla. – The City of Orlando is selling a steam locomotive and passenger cars that were once part of the Church Street Station restaurant in the city’s downtown. Included are former Frisco 0-6-0 No. 3749, which has been re-lettered for Seaboard Air Line. The engine was built by Baldwin in 1913 and believed to have been a switcher at Pensacola, Fla. Also for sale are a former Union Pacific dome and two heavyweight club cars.

The city is offering the engine and cars for display, historic renovation, or potentially salvage. It is estimated that the cost for mobilization, permitting, loading, and transporting may range from $275,000 to $350,000, subject to the final shipment location.

Interested parties will be responsible for providing the equipment for removal, transportation, and other related expenses. The city of Orlando wants the equipment removed from the site no later than Dec. 29, 2011.

The city is asking for letters of interest by Dec. 9, 2011. Offers and inquiries are to be sent to: City of Orlando, Attn: David Billingsley 400 S. Orange Avenue Orlando, FL, 32801, david.billingsley@cityoforlando.net, (407) 246-2897.

Previous discussions here:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=25662
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=28327 (with photos)
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=29817

tomgears · **Posted:** Thu Dec 01, 2011 10:35 am

They want it out in 28 days? We're going to see one of three things; an extension and a lot of flexibility, a Christmas miracle, or the scrap man.

Dave · **Posted:** Thu Dec 01, 2011 11:51 am

Has anybody experienced actually done anything like a real survey? Looking over the earlier threads, seems like a lot of the history is pretty well known, and apart from an unsupported comment that a new boiler would probably be required without any other information there's nothing being said about its present condition.

More misinformation about moving costs in the article, equally unsupported. On the one hand I'm grateful to the newspaper for trying to encourage a resolution, but frustrated by the lack of quality in their source information. Of course, they can only quote the people who talk to them. Isn't there anybody with real data to ask?

Im think real information ight help lead to a favorable resolution - especially compared to the Minarets that was recently scrapped just down the road.

dave

Ron Travis · **Joined:** Sun May 15, 2005 2:22 pm **Posts:** 1543

Does the city of Orlando own this equipment? Is the equipment considered to be an historical display or is it just considered to be in storage? From what I have read, it sounds like the equipment has actually been for sale for several years. The city's current announcement includes the provision that the equipment may be sold for salvage, which is the only option that provides a predictable time span of performance.

Given that option and the 30-day timeframe to have the equipment sold and removed, it sounds like the city is extremely motivated to urgently dispose of the equipment. Considering how long the equipment has sat there, why is there such sudden urgency to get rid of it?

Dave · **Posted:** Thu Dec 01, 2011 11:56 am

Ummmmm.......... my guess is it is just what the article said? Construction of a new public facility on the same real estate, which probably is at least partially federally funded, and use it or lost it? Having offered it at way too high a cost to an uninterested market for several years supports that theory, as it takes a lot of time to get those projects of the drawing board and onto the ground.

dave

Les Beckman · **Joined:** Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:25 pm **Posts:** 6482

For the record, SLSF 0-6-0 #3749 was the last Frisco steam locomotive used in regular service. It was leased to the Alabama State Prison in Atmore and was used in that capacity until the Fall of 1956.

Les

IC382 · **Joined:** Fri Mar 26, 2010 11:28 am **Posts:** 135

I know many people will consider my suggestion to be blasphemy...but, why not disassemble and move to a museum where it can be dissected as a learning tool.

I have seen the locomotive multiple times. They kept it painted....but without spending significant dollars...it really is nothing more then a wasp nest. It may have been the last engine to be in steam for Frisco...but that doesn't make it instant history.

Many museums with running locomotives have no interest in destroying any of their collection for display. Since most of the operating parts are missing....wouldn't it make a great cut-a-way? Let's teach the viewing public how a locomotive does what it does!

PRR8157 · **Joined:** Sat Jul 30, 2011 12:47 pm **Posts:** 43

Section the engine? Oh, that's great thinking. All THAT displays is a locomotive in the process of being scrapped. There are too many locomotives that have been 'butchered' because of misguided ideas of 'showing how an engine works'. In this day of computer graphics and advanced audio visual techniques, a much more thorough explanation can be presented - and you'd still have the complete historic locomotive.

Ron Travis · **Joined:** Sun May 15, 2005 2:22 pm **Posts:** 1543

PRR8157 wrote:

Section the engine? Oh, that's great thinking. All THAT displays is a locomotive in the process of being scrapped. There are too many locomotives that have been 'butchered' because of misguided ideas of 'showing how an engine works'. In this day of computer graphics and advanced audio visual techniques, a much more thorough explanation can be presented - and you'd still have the complete historic locomotive.

I completely agree. Sectioning the artifact tends to create an abstraction that is more like artwork than a reference to technical information.

Alexander D. Mitchell IV · **Posted:** Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:11 pm

PRR8157 wrote:

Section the engine? Oh, that's great thinking. All THAT displays is a locomotive in the process of being scrapped. There are too many locomotives that have been 'butchered' because of misguided ideas of 'showing how an engine works'.

Really?

REALLY?

Name 'em.

I neither favor nor reject the proposed idea of "sectioning" this particular locomotive, but I'll ask: if that's the only serious proposal aside from hungry scrappers firing up the torches or cutting jaws...... then what?

Ron Travis · **Joined:** Sun May 15, 2005 2:22 pm **Posts:** 1543

Well aside from the pros and cons of sectioning per se, how does sectioning offer an advantage in saving the locomotive from scrap? Whether it is sectioned or restored to operation, it still has to be removed from the site intact.

And there is only 7 days remaining to make a proposal along with a $30,000 performance deposit.

FLO · **Joined:** Tue Jan 25, 2011 2:07 am **Posts:** 328

An example of a sectioned steam engine at the French National Ry Museum (scroll half way down the page). Nine pictures of the sectioned engine in total:
http://www.martynbane.co.uk/2003Trips/B ... useum5.htm

IC382 · **Joined:** Fri Mar 26, 2010 11:28 am **Posts:** 135

FLO,

This is exactly what I was talking about.

I would hate to scrap an engine too...but a line needs to be drawn. Every aging steam locomotive and diesel engine is not...historic. Every time you go to a steam engine display...THAT engine did the last this or that. It is ridiculous. Most display engines were just pulled from a scrap line and given away. Engines that were purposefully saved are few and far between. We are all fortunate that many engines...happen...to have SOME historical significance.

Imagine if everyone that shot photos of, chased, stood beside, etc....a steam locomotive just gave a whole $1....imagine what could be done for preservation. The fact that the engine in Orlando is an ex-Frisco engine is insignificant.

I don't post often, but I have become concerned when everyone becomes focused on saving yet another derelict engine. If someone wants to spend $100,000 on this hulk, why don't they just give $100,000 to say...TVMR with the stipulation that they rebuild Central of Georgia 4-4-0, 349? $100,000 would pay for the restoration and the engine would have a place to operate for years to come.

OR...we can move another hulk to another location for too much money...and watch it gather rust for another 30 years.

Ron Travis · **Joined:** Sun May 15, 2005 2:22 pm **Posts:** 1543

I don’t know the condition of the ex-Frisco 0-6-0, but I would not conclude that it a worthless hulk. I would also not conclude that another owner would let the engine sit and gather rust for another 30 years. I would also not assume that the moving cost would be an automatic showstopper to a sale. The locomotive and tender could be moved to another location within say 30 miles for probably less than $15,000.

The issue of saving it is not about its historical significance as a particular locomotive and its life story. The issue is the intrinsic value of a locomotive that somebody might want to own for variety of reasons. And no matter what it ends up costing to move, that is the prerogative of the buyer. I don’t think he or she should be under any collective obligation to spend his or her money on other locomotives that the preservation community in general deems more worthy of such an expenditure.

However, the real issue here is not whether or not the locomotive is worth saving. The market would determine that, and it my guess that there will be many qualified takers if only they were given something more than the ridiculously short 9-day timeframe to act.

So, I believe the most significant issue here is to give the city enough public feedback to make them aware of the negative public reaction to the prospect of scrapping this equipment.

PennCentral4321 · **Joined:** Wed Jun 23, 2010 7:45 pm **Posts:** 128

This is a copy of the Public Notice made by the City of Orlando:

Quote:

November 22, 2011
PUBLIC NOTICE
REQUEST FOR LETTERS OF INTEREST FOR HISTORICAL TRAIN REMOVAL/DISPOSAL
The City of Orlando is accepting Letters of Interest from parties that wish to take ownership of a train engine, tender and/or rail cars currently located on the tracks at Church Street Station between Church Street and South Street as is, where is, no warranties expressed or implied. The train consists of a Baldwin Locomotive Works #SLSF 3749 (0-6-0) locomotive built in approximately 1911, one tender, one dome passenger car and two club cars. The train is currently a static display and is not operational. Photographs are available upon request.
The train/components may be used for display, historic renovation or potentially salvage. It is estimated that the cost for mobilization, permitting, loading, and transporting may range from $275,000 to $350,000, subject to the final ship location.
Interested parties will be responsible for providing the appropriate equipment for removal and transporting, permitting, and other related expenses. Train must be removed from site no later than December 29, 2011, therefore the City is prepared to contract for removal and transport in the event there is not a successful offer.
The Letter of Interest must be received by Friday, December 9, 2011 by 5:00 p.m., Local Time, City of Orlando, and include an offer for train restoration and/or salvage, a general plan for removal and transport, contact person, phone number(s), email address, and mailing address. As time is of the essence, a refundable deposit in the form of a bond, cashier’s check or money order in the amount of $30,000 is required with the Letter of Interest.
Selection will be based on the best value to the City including timeliness of removal and least expense to the City. All offers and inquires are to be sent to:
City of Orlando, Attn: David Billingsley
400 S. Orange Avenue
Orlando, FL, 32801
david.billingsley@cityoforlando.net
(407) 246-2897

This Public Notice comes from a Court Order being issued to remove the train. FDOT wants it removed so a commuter station can be built at the location. FDOT has told the City of Orlando to have it removed. if you read in this Public Notice it states, "no warranties expressed or implied." That would include legal ownership. This equipment was originally part of a privately owned development Church Street Station. When the question was ask as to legal ownership of the equipment there was a long silence on the phone.

Also if you read the requirements set by the City of Orlando anyone submitting a proposal must not only post the $30,000.00 but must also be able to obtain necessary to enter CSX & FDOT property. That alone may be a requirement that may limit who can submit a successful proposal.

I am sure that there may be many places where the locomotive and the cars could be given a good home. How many can meet the requirements to meet the terms set out by the City of Orlando. The notice also reads the same way that a notice for the removal of an abandoned car would be worded. This may be something that the final story may string out for years. As it appears that there may be only one party who will ever be able to remove it, but the city has to do it in a "legal" way.