This photo appeared on the NKP190 website recently and shows the small trim window for an Alco cab unit. I've talked to Doyle McCormack a bit and he said they purchased the proper glass and made up the frame for it. In comparing notes with Doyle it turns out that the PA and FA shared the same windshields and side windows. He is quite busy right now and couldn't supply additional information or drawings on what he had made so I drew up a cross-section of what I think will work. The FRA type 2 glass is 3/8" thick. I have searched the internet for aluminum extrusion with a cross section that will work and have found none so I am thinking of having it milled from a piece of aluminum bar stock. The FA I am working on is a former LI cab car which had the original windows gutted and sliding "bus" windows attached to the outside. I think all ex LI cab car had this done so what I am trying to replace is applicable to the other ex LI units or may have already been done? Looking for ideas and suggestions....

Rich Jahn

I do not think you have a bad solution. Have you a source for what must also be a custom rubber gasket to seat and seal the glazing?

We have a project where old salvaged aluminum frames, complete with glass are being restored. Some of the glass has delaminated, some is etched by spatter from a cutting torch, some glass broken. The aluminum extrusions were assembled using self tapping steel machine screws, and they seem IMPOSSIBLE to remove without destroying much of the extrusion. But if we can do it, we have found no rubber gasket or substitution for that. The windows on the lower sash also have a badly hardened and deteriorated rubber weatherstrip/bumper across the bottom.

So, does anyone have a supplier that might be able to make a both of these materials? Maybe 400-500 feet of the gasket, 100-200 feet of the bumpers? Or anyone also working on PCC car restorations that may have an answer?


Bob Kutella

By any chance is the FA1 that you're working on at the Danbury Railway Museum, or is there other ex-LIRR FA1s that still exist?

There are 15 ALCO Cab units; both FA-1 and FA-2 units still in existence in the United States. I am presently creating a small article of these X-LIRR survivors for ALCO NOTES newsletter..
John

This project concerns an FA2 that is is in Scranton, Pa. Trying to keep the weather out and then do stabilization work.

Bob,
I have it planned for a "U" shape rubber gasket.There are several companies offering various profiles. Google search - rubber extrusions. There are also companies which will make custom profiles if you want at least 500 ft.
RWJ

Depends on your restoration standards, then. FRA "glass" may be the wrong answer.

FIRST: The reg may not apply to you. Anytime anyone quotes an FRA reg, go straight to the "Applicability" section of that part, typically section 3. Here, 49 CFR 223.3(a) is a starting point. Notably, what the hell are you doing with an Alco FA that is both on the general system and NOT exempted by the historic/tourist/private uses called out in 223.3(b)(3)?

SECOND: The defining characteristic of FRA "glass" (really: plastic) is the ability to survive the tests in 49 CFR 223, very approximately it must survive a hit with a .22 bullet, and a corner hit from a cinder block at { 15 mph for side glass, 40 mph for end glass.} The reg doesn't call out material or thickness; nor does it say you can't route the edges to fit an existing sash. However the glass must be destructively tested as installed, thickness, routing etc. This certification is why the cost is so nasty.

THIRD: Nothing about the reg says anything about cracking on its own, hazing or turning green in 2 years. FRA is perfectly fine with you apologizing to your passengers for the sorry state of your windows.

FRA cares about certification and vandalproof. You as a car owner, care about durability and cost. These goals are wildly incompatible.

So if 223.3 Applicability says you're in the clear, maybe you should forget the cost-prohibitive FRA requirement, and focus on choosing the glazing that's right for you. You might go traditional glass, or you might get a chunk of the correct plastic material and mill it down to fit the existing sash. For a tiny fraction of the price of certifying it.

In addition to the aforementioned FA-2 in Scranton, there are two FA-1s and two FA-2s in NJ. Also an FA-1 resides at RMNE in CT. All are ex- LIRR.

I have been told, but have never (yet) measured them myself, that the FA-1 and FA-2 windshields are different. I do know that the trim pieces (inside the cab) are not interchangeable with each other.

When talking 'FA', it is important to remember that the FA-1 and FA 2 are two very different models. While the machinery may be much the same, to some extent, there are many more differences beyond the length and radiator location. A body part, (i.e door, door latch, window windshield, step, etc.) that may fit one model may not come close to fitting the other.

One solution to the side windows that has come up has been a window that drops down into the wall in the same manner as the side window for the engineer on a Budd RDC car. It may not be historically correct, but should at least be functional and legal.

Ahh an FRA Window project, Fun Fun.

I have a couple of ideas for you. I've recently been involved with a couple different FRA Window Projects and we had to face some of the same obstacles as your facing.

First off I personally own and restoring an N&W Caboose that was built by international Car Company. I chose to replace all the windows (22 in all) with new FRA 223 glazing. Some were broke other were just sorry looking and still others the gaskets were dried out and needed reworking anyway. So a year later and some time and money involved I now have 22 newly rebuilt Aluminum windows with new gasket and new glazing ready to go in to the caboose that is scheduled to be media blasted this spring and repainted. Ok long story short, the original supplier of the windows for International Car Company was bought out by a company that to this day makes FRA transportation and transit window assemblies. Dynamic Metals of now Elkhart IN. (Moved used to be based out of Louisville KY as of this past year) Dynamic Metals carries many many styles of Gasket and are currently working to reproduce the adlake style passenger car windows from my understanding. Dynamic Metals was able to provide me with most everything I needed to rebuild my windows, with one exception. The one exception was that I had 5 body mounted windows that had a certain style frame and they didn't "Stock" the size of gasket I needed so I used a local glass shop that used to handle FRA glazing for Norfolk Southerns local shops. They were able to "Make" a gasket using the glass and the provided frames much in the way they would seal a commercial window. Then took my frames and centered the glazing in the opening and the frame and then poured into and formed a custom gasket. Once the gasket was formed and set up it was then trimmed and makes a perfect fit and fits and seals better than a fabricated casket from an extrusion.

OK with all of that being said if you want a certain type of gasket to go with your project I know they can be made in 500 to 1000 ft runs custom. We have locally had custom gasket made with a local gasket/rubber supplier and we provide them the dimensions of the frame and glass/glazing much like you have done and the produce a die to extrude to shape required for your application. We have had dies made to convert double pane adlake passenger car window frames to Single pane FRA glazed frames by making new gasket that will fit the aluminum extruded adlake frames to hold one 3/8" pane rather than the two before. With this idea you are required to cover the cost of the die and required to make a minimum order on the gasket but it will fit your need to the T when completed.

So you have a couple of options check with current transit window providers to see if they stock a compatible gasket which I did and it worked on all but 5 windows and the gasket cost me around $2 or so a ft. The second option is to maybe have the gasket custom made to fit the application using liquid gasket by a local commercial glass company if you’re not replacing or building enough windows to justify the cost in having custom gaskets made. Third you could have a custom die made and have your custom size gasket produced for you in a quantity to perform you current job and some on hand for repairs and future projects. Some of these options cost more than others but I believe the all produce very nice results, just depends on your needs and locally available processes.

The company's I use are the following:
Custom Gasket production:
http://www.cardinalrubber.com/molded-extruded-rubber-products.shtml

Transportation Glazing, gasket production and supplies (FRA)
Dynamic Metals:
(This is the former company in KY that is now part of the larger company in Elkhart IN)
Web site is currently down for re-work but they do produce FRA products:
http://www.dynamicmetals-ky.com/
This is the new main web site for Dynamic Metals:
http://dynamicmetalsllc.com/markets/rail.htm

Feel free to contact me for more details in the different gasket and window projects that we have recently undertaken.

Steve Smith
Roanoke VA
Private equipment owner and volunteer at local RR Museums and Chapters.

Understand about the glass regs and the cost but my main issue is I have a big empty hole with plywood over it where some representation of side cab glass should be. I have no existing sash. I need to make some kind of frame to hold some type of glazing material so the opening can be sealed from outside weather. Doyle McCormack has sucessfully purchased glazing material that meets type 2 regulations. Dynamic Metals now has these parts in their system and thus those of us with similar locomotives can purchase this glass. At about $150 per piece it is not cheap but it is not that huge of an expenditure either.
Whatever is to hold the glass is my major concern right now. One metal company that I talked to that works with aluminum extrusions could not bend what I need since their min radius is 4.5 inches, I need about 3.5 inch for the "vent" window curve.

Rich



[/quote]

To clarify a bit more I've attached a photo of what is existing. Raw opening - no sash - nothing existing. Thus the question about suggestions on how to make window frames / sash without costing a fortune. FRA glass is about $150.00 per piece but if Dynamic Metals is to make a custom frame that will be well into four figures. By comparison gasket and size / type of glass is the easy part.
The photo shows an existing piece of acrylic just sitting in the rusty opening with no type of seal. This is the situation that needs to be improved

Looking at the drawing cross section, how about making it in three pieces, and screwing or welding it together?

Have the three parts cut on a waterjet and size the thickness of the middle section to fit a off the shelf gasket.

-Hudson

I've used flat rubber tape about an inch wide as a gasket by simply wrapping it around the edge of the glass before shoving it into the channel. If there's a lot of extra room to fill, cork tape is readily available as pipe insulation and is sticky on one side, and can be cut and stuck to the glass and capped with caulk at the edge open to the weather.

dave

If you could use something which is only 9/16" thick instead of 5/8" (or maybe adjust the design of the frame to do so), RPM Mechanical might stock it.

Check their Item # XU-0375-01

I've never dealt with them, found this thru Thomas Net.

Thank you Steve Smith, for the reply and the 'tutorial' on where to start the process for rubber extrusions. I have already gone to the sites. It is really good news that 'all is not lost' in this area of restoration work.

Bob Kutella