In the above picture, I see three holes in the frame area, they look like mounting holes for a hinge. Did the original vent windows open? I've seen a number of F-units that did/do, as well some that do not anymore, due to mods done in service. Might it be easier to make opening vent windows, if it originally had them?

Yes, the vent windows on as-built Alco and EMD carbody locomotives opened. Once upon a time, there was a supplier (JT Nelson ?) who could furnish fixed FRA replacements for EMD.

Rich,

Having spent much time on the FA-1 glazing issue in the past (which included generating a complete set of shop drawings for a replacement side window), I can offer some background/advice.

The windshields-the LIRR scrapped the original windshield glazing and retention arrangement and sourced replacement material from Sierracin. Last time I spoke to them, Sieraccin could still supply the material for about 700 bucks each side. Retention consisted of aluminum blocks tapped for bolts which held the glass in place. In turn, the blocks bolted to existing holes in the windshield opening. I would add pieces of aluminum flat bar with cork sealing material on one side to be placed between the bolt heads and the glass.

The photos of the NKP 190 show the original ALCO side window mechanism. The windows were held up by a pair of coil springs. A rachet clutch worked against the springs to keep the window down. Aside from the clutch, all of the parts were relatively simple fab shop stuff.

Rumor had it that while in LIRR service, one of the rachet clutches failed, with the window coming up and taking out an engineers' eye...thus mandating their replacement.

Have you removed the sheet metal trim around the window opening and below the window ? I suspect what remains of the window mechanism will still be present.
There is a drawing of the mechanism that can be found in an FA or PA parts book.

The entire window mechanism was held in place by six bolts. Four are found below the armrest area (look at the 190 photo) and there are two found in the area where the top of the window rest when closed. There should also be a formed piece of steel that spans the width of the window just below the armrest. This had two flat head machine screws on each end so it could be removed in order to extract the entire window assembly.

I would make the section that forms the rear of the frame a channel section and the front section should be a T or L section. A piece of flat stock over one leg of the front section will serve to retain the window and the felt filler channel that the window actually slides against.

Another possibility is make the filler channels out of nylatron, with a slot milled within for the glazing to slide against. I think that Lexan would be a superior material (vs. glass) to work with the nylatron.

Hope this is of use to you.

DPK

Are you sure? I see what looks like a groove all the way around. My guess is that's where the glass originally went. Are there metal casings, presumably on the inside, which can be removed? I'll bet those come off, and the window goes in there, wrapped in rubber.

I'm quite familiar with sister units to the one that Rich is working on. That 'groove' is the edge of a thin gauge trim piece, in no way beefy enough to hold the original glazing in. Whatever mounting the units had for glazing when built was lost when the LIRR welded the frames for the sliding windows on the outside of the carbody.

Those replacement frames were rectangular, and the top front corner stuck out alongside and ahead of the windshield. Pretty ugly, but functional; I'm told that there was a hardware store in Morris Park that stocked replacement glazing for those side windows. Those windows show up on 614 in Bobb Losse's Extra 2200 South article in issue 127. The acrylic shown in the image was apparently post LIRR.

I'm not knocking LIRR here, but there were lots of things done to those units to keep them in service as powerpacks (244, Cummins or Detroit) that were not conducive to later restoration. Bringing one back as a locomotive, or even doing a good cosmetic restoration, requires a great deal of research and re-engineering. It is not simply a matter of reinstalling the reverser and traction motors, as one railfan told us a dozen years ago.

Been looking at this for more than 10 years. The "gap" is just the way the locomotive was built and is where inside metal meets outside. There is no place for glass. It is all remnants of what was once there. Yes, the holes are where the hinge was mounted for the original vent window which as others have stated did open (as delivered). There are other holes such as where the vertical divider once was that separated the vent from the drop sash.

I think the suggestion to water-jet cut three pieces to the correct curve will be the most workable idea...

Rich

EDM wrote:


Let's face it, the primary function of a loco shop is to provide enough units to make service. That fact alone can explain what was done to the LIRR power cars.

Having spent 20 odd years on restoring one of these beasts...

Some additional background-the creation of the power cars was a collaboration between Alco Products and GE Trans. By the time that this effort was initiated, Alco carbody units were pretty much few and far between. The first six happened to be long-retired former L&N units. For these, the nature of the conversion involved removing equipment not required for the new application and then adding equipment required for the power car application. Fairly straightforward...

Efforts involved with the later units were far more involved, as all the later units had a different control scheme-in addition to some being a different model completely (FA-1). Among other tasks-the contactor cabinet had to be wiped clean and equipment installed to match the first six.

All of these conversions were done at a GE Service shop-without the benefit of any shop drawings. Strictly back of the envelope...so there should be no surprise that there was much variation in the finished product (s).

Fast forward to today-the easiest (and I use that word advisedly) examples to restore are the extant examples of the first six-those with the original Alco 244 engine. As to those that don't have the Alco engine, I wouldn't be surprised if the total expense involved exceeded the cost of the units when new. Lots of missing items need to be fabbed and applied to the chassis.

Long before NKP 190, the concept of 'dropping in' an existing electrical cabinet vs. building one up was proposed by a former Alco employee. Having arranged to procure a cabinet from a locomotive being scrapped, I was somewhat disappointed
to hear the entire loco had gone up in flames when said cabinet was being removed.

DPK

arjay3 Can you send me a PM I know of another project going on like this and we may be able to share some set up cost.


Ben