Hello everyone,

I came across a topic on another forum about the NS 21st Century Steam. There was a young chap, I suppose around my age or so who had come up with a list of steam locomotives that he thought should be added to the NS roster of leased steam power. And boy, was it a list. Just to name a few; C&O 614, CP 1293, NKP 765 ect. While those sound really awesome, the reality is, this is not our show, this is Norfolk Southern's Program, and we should be thankful for what they have done so far and what they will do in the future.

But thinking on the subject, are we asking too much of railroads, like Norfolk Southern today? Are we asking too much from them to run Southern 630 and others over their property? I know we all dream, we wouldn't be human if we didn't, but shouldn't we be just happy enough with what is happening and what NS and other railroads have done, rather than making a list of what should be as if we are the ones making the descisions ourselves?

This topic has probably been brought up before...so...

Martin

There's a difference between an open-ended, broad, unsupported request and a request to consider a realistic plan for a program that could produce benefit for all concerned.

Keep your dreams to yourself, but share real workable ideas with others who have the ability to help develop them into decent legitimate proposals. That's the basis of credibility.

Remember, it's OK to be an amateur, provided you don't actually act like one in front of anybody that can effect real change.

dave

The 630 has been out on the mainline because it was good for Norfolk Southern in the eyes of those running Norfolk Southern at this time. While there might be secondary reasons, that is the first reason. It is the reason on the top of the list. TVRM is lucky enough to have the engine, people, and capability to provide this PUBLIC AND CUSTOMER RELATIONS TOOL. There are no steam engines on the NS mainline because the railfans said "let there be steam engines". While I firmly believe that Wick Moorman is a railroad historian, he is a railroad businessman first and foremost. Whether the railfan community wants to admit it or not, too many steam engines on the NS mainline is no longer a tool but a hindrance to the normal course of business. I think a show of respect is in order by thanking them for the opportunities we have rather than continually asking them when the 611 and the 1218 are gonna be back on the mainline.

Martin,

As railfans we see things in ways that a Board of Directors does not. For example; If you and I were members of the Board of Directors or the Executive Staff of NS or UP or any other big road, we would start our weekly meeting like this:

Martin would greet John and say, "John, how many photos of the steam special did you get this weekend?"......"Boy that was great. When do we do it again?" Our meeting would progress by planning future trips, helping our railroad police be more railfan friendly and then, at the end, we have a slide show of our pictures......it would be great.

In the real world, the Broad of Directors and or the Executive Teams meet weekly and their meetings go something like this;

The Chairman calls the meeting to order and asks, "What were last weeks revenues like?" They would talk about the ups and downs, unit trains, big contracts and so on. Somebody would mention the lost revenue because of these *&^%$%^^ Steam Locomotive running around and the mass convergence of foaming maniacs on the property for countless hours. The next item on the agenda is: "Who is suing us this week, why and what are we doing about it?" The discussion would morf into why our Railroad police need to be more strict and ensure that the railfans stay off the property!

See, Martin, we see all of this as a great effort in public relations and good will. They see it as something the Marketing team tells them they must do, so do it they will, but ensuring that it is done their way! It is about money, policies and liability, not what is fun, cool or seemingly popular.

Are we asking too much? INDEED! In fact, we do not have the right to ask or even suggest that we can demand such kind actions from NS. UP has created a culture where by they run the steam locomotives on their schedule in their own areas for their own reasons and.....oh, by the way, they do these little "Feel Good" railfan contests of picking the next trip just to make all of us feel like they really care. Successful Railroad business cares about these three things; Revenue, Contracts and Liabilities. Steam does not and never will qualify as a top three agenda item action......I promise!

The best thing we can do is encourage our brothers and sisters to send Thank You letters to UP, BNSF, Amtrak and NS for even considering steam. When we see our kins folk post hate notes on boards about why they hated the last trip because of the angle of the sun and the lack of good shots.....we need to take these out back and ask them to pick a switch!

If half of us posting would actually sit down and write a real letter on paper to the Chairman and CEO's we may actually see a real impact. We need to realize that in some cases, top executives and people in the "know" are watching these boards. I challenge all of the easterners who are enjoying what NS is doing to WRITE A REAL LETTER ON REAL PAPER AND SAY.......THANK YOU!

Kindly,

John E. Rimmasch
Chief Executive Officer, Chairman of the Board,
Wasatch Railroad Contractors

http://wrrc.us

Well said, John

I would add one more suggestion. When tickets to ride one of the special excursions are offered to the general public, buy at least one! Trackside photographers capturing images of the trains are nice, but it doesn't help the railroad (or whoever is footing the bill for the excursion) pay the bills associated with the trip. -- Ray

Hayneshopcat hit the nail directly on the head. Well said.

Jim

The fact of the matter, is that unless you are a shareholder or customer of Norfolk Southern, you can ask all you want, and NS doesn't have to listen.

Believe it or not, NS doesn't run those freight trains for the visual aesthetic enjoyment of you, or so you can shoot some new slides to show at your local NRHS chapter meeting. The corporate officers and board members of NS hold a direct fiduciary responsibility to the shareholders to turn a profit and run the business in a responsible manner. Everything NS does from a "public relations" standpoint has to have a direct and justifiable benefit to the railroad and its owners, from printing calendars to running 630 on the trips.

If, for some reason, NS were to suddenly turn unprofitable, I imagine the board would be under pressure to cut costs across all aspects. As a result, we enjoy such niceties of the 21st Century Steam Program at the will of NS and its corporate management. Railroad Historian or not, at the end of the day, it is all designed to have a tangible benefit to the company. We should be thankful and grateful that they have done what they have.

So are we asking too much? Unless you are a shareholder or customer of NS, you technically have as much right to "ask" and "demand" the parameters of the NS steam program, as much as much as you have a right to ask NS to send men to the moon. Just because you ask, doesn't mean they have to listen.

I appreciate the responses from you all, and I agree with everyone of you on what you have posted.

I am very hopefull of 21st Century Steam. Here in VA, we are steam deprived for the most part. And so any opportunity to see or ride behind a live steam locomotive in operation here is a cause for celebration in my eyes.


Thanks again everyone.

Railroads (and other companies) see this kind of stuff everyday, and not just from fans. If you read the post the OP was talking about, it takes about 5 seconds to realize that it is young man or someone not at all grounded in reality. Either way, someone from the railroad will probably read it for 5 seconds, then move on to the next thing.

I can promise you, there are people who have probably hand written letters that contained ideas that were much further out there than what this young man came up with. It's no big deal and nothing to worry about.

Some people do ask too much, or at least don't know how to ask reasonably. In other words, they come off like kooks, or their ideas are half-baked, or they don't think about money at all. They bring the dismissals and brush-offs upon themselves.

But is a steam program really too much? What is the proper perspective? If a company earns a profit of $100 million a year, is it too much that they celebrate their heritage with $5 million per year, or even less? Is it too much for them to reach out to their neighbors, their fellow citizens, to say "hi, friend?"

Perhaps the real problem is that "money" asks too much. "Money" demands that you, if "ordered" to do so, ignore your neighbors, trash (scrap or abandon) your property, discard your heritage, and dispose of real people. In short, "money" says it and it alone is all important--not history, not heritage, not service, not people, not the enjoyment that these things bring--just "money."

And what happens to "money?" All it really does is disappear. . .

The "money" from the destruction of Penn Station didn't save Penn Central.

The "money" from the sale of the last CNJ Camelback 4-6-0 didn't save the CNJ.

The "money" saved by not preserving one of the beautiful 4-8-4s of the RF&P didn't make much difference one way or another to that road's finances.

In all of these cases and many others, I would like someone to point out to me where that "money" is today. I bet you can't find it.

Just food for thought, especially in the season in which we may recall Dickens. and his best-known literary creation. . .

The answer to the question that started this tread can be given in one work

YES

and the reason is simple railroads aren't in the entertainment business, companies like Walt Disney and Universal Studios are.

Bob H

Maybe I am being a bit cynical, but I have a feeling the 21st Century Program is going to be used more as a way to lobby for HSR than anything else.

There is a ton of money on the line here, so it would make sense for NS to use some of the best tools it has available to sway the public and the Government.

Spending $2 million a year to receive a $200 million upgrade to your infrastructure isn't a bad ROI.

Cynicism is realistic and good. HSR is also good and it needs to be made realistic. Steam to pursue it is good squared and wouldn't it be nice if CSX jumped on that bandwagon as well? I'd much rather not one mile of new interstate highway be built but investment made in rail infrastructure instead, while catching up on maintaining what critical existing interstate we have, and perhaps removing some bits that aren't really necessary.

dave

I agree with Dave, the new steam program is a part of a general PR effort (and that's good, and not just for us extreme railfans here), but if it is to help back a lobbying project, it's more likely to be for things like rail freight improvements, i.e., improving tunnel clearances. As Dave pointed out, we are overdependent on highway and air travel, and overdependent on trucking; that in turn drives our dependence on those countries that have more of that black goo than we do, but who for reasons real and imaginary don't like us too well.

Of course, if it also reintroduces people to the pleasantries of rail travel, that backs the passenger equation, too, and could help bolster the case for expanded passenger service.

I think a big element of this, from this angle, would be to aim the excursion program more at the general public than at the railfan market. The use of steam is a good point here, I think; it helps to contrast the old with the new. the past with the present and the future. No less a personage than David P. Morgan thought so in regard to the original Southern steam program back when it was only a 2-8-2 and a pair of 2-8-0s--and one of his successors recently commented how one major class one was doing quite well, but unlike its brethren, just didn't seem happy to be what it is--a railroad. That's sad in a way, and in a human being, that would also be considered a bit unhealthy. (I won't comment on the people with big egos who go too far the other way!)

Of course, a black and red bullet and a "pet monster" are nice, too. . . :-)

Excuse me while I don my flameproof underwear. . .