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 Post subject: Restoring the "Black Diamond"
PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 12:34 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 2:46 pm
Posts: 658
Location: St. Louis, MO
The Museum of Transportation near St Louis has decided to place the Philadelphia & Reading Coal & Iron Co "Black Diamond" 2-2-2T inspection loco on exhibit in its
new building now under construction. It was moved to the shop on Dec 15 and cleaning it up in preparation for repainting has begun. Some original paint has already been found under the bases of the front hand rails. We are looking for any and all photos that can be found of it to help get the lettering and markings right, especially those taken when it was in service. Already on hand are books by Wiswesser and Holton, as well as the data from the R&LHS bulletin on the RDG, and the Baldwin specifications from the Degolyer Library. If you have or know of any other photos that we can obtain copies of please let me know. As this is the sole surviving inspection locomotive in the US this will be a significant exhibit and any and all help with the project is appreciated. Data and a photo of the locomotive can be seen at http://www.readingrailroad.org/profiles ... amond.html, and we would love to have a copy or scan of the color photo used there as well as any other color photos taken of it.

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Ron Goldfeder
St. Louis


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 Post subject: Re: Restoring the "Black Diamond"
PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 12:52 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 3:37 pm
Posts: 1325
Location: Pacific, MO
I can see a discussion coming up on this one. The photo and description says loaned (?) to the MOT. Better clear this one up Ron or we know which road this will go down.


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 Post subject: Re: Restoring the "Black Diamond"
PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 2:25 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 12151
Location: Somewhere east of Prescott, AZ along the old Santa Fe "Prescott & Eastern"
It appears (from the chronology in question) that the precise ownership COULD be in dispute, given the question mark after "loaned". More likely, however, is that this is one of many, MANY such cases of "indefinite loan" by an individual or group to another group or organization. In all probability, the most recent owner is deceased, the heir(s) have no claim/case/clue, and "possession is 99% of the law."

Which will make some folks say, "why the charade of 'indefinite loan'? Why not just GIVE it to them?" There's a very easy answer to that. Typically, when these "loans" are made, the institution or group is still in its formative or beginning phases. If you own a unique artifact in need of a good home, you want at least some assurance that the group or operation will survive (and not just turn around five years later and dole out your artifact to another group), and/or offer you the right to reclaim your piece should they change their mission (from a railroad museum to a local-history museum, from a museum to a tourist line, or from a regional railroad museum to one with a focus only on one railroad, for examples all with precedent).

You may remember that I mentioned a GG1 that was donated to the B&O Museum, and then ten years later sent off to Green Bay. Good for GG1 representation nationally and for Green Bay, bad for PRR fans in Maryland. Had that been a "loan" situation, that GG1 might be elsewhere in Maryland now--in what condition is anybody's guess. I also mentioned a historic piece of rolling stock sold decades ago to what is now indisputably a "good home" during their formative days, but if the place in question folds, the group that originally saved it can, if the contract I read is actually what was signed, buy it back for a three-figure sum. Nobody in either group ever foresees any enforcement of that clause EVER, but........... you know, just in case....


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 Post subject: Re: Restoring the "Black Diamond"
PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 3:47 pm 

Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2006 2:21 am
Posts: 596
Location: Yardley, PA (near Phila)
As seen at the Museum back in July, 2011.

Glad this overlooked historic piece will finally get the attention it deserves.

Should be a boost to the museum as well. I'll bet there are folks there
that have visited the museum a dozen times and never knew this locomotive
was there. Quite a few unique gems tucked away in the collection.

(Being such a small locomotive - wonder what it would take to restore to
operation? - It would actually be the perfect size to run at the museum,
though not intrinsic to MO, nor anyone's idea of a prime example of a classic
all American steam engine)

Image

/Mitch


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 Post subject: Re: Restoring the "Black Diamond"
PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 3:49 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:19 am
Posts: 6464
Location: southeastern USA
I wouldn't assume that captive paint is "original", Ron. It is just older than the last time the area under the rails was painted, which could have been 1968 for all we know.

dave

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“God, the beautiful racket of it all: the sighing and hissing, the rattle and clack of the cars over the rails. These were the sounds that made America the greatest country on earth." Jonathan Evison


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 Post subject: Re: Restoring the "Black Diamond"
PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 4:17 pm 

Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:25 pm
Posts: 6482
Alexander D. Mitchell IV wrote:

Which will make some folks say, "why the charade of 'indefinite loan'? Why not just GIVE it to them?"


There is another reason for an 'indefinite loan' or a 'permanent loan', as opposed to just GIVING an object to an organization.

The GIVING organization would actually retain title. If something would happen to the receiving organization (such as a bankruptcy), then the GIVING organization can reclaim its object, whatever it is. The object would not be part of the breakup and could not be disposed of.

A 'permanent' or 'indefinite' loan also protects the RECEIVING organization. For instance, let's say that the object is restored by the RECEIVING organization. If the loan weren't stipulated as 'indefinite' or 'permanent', the GIVING organization might come back and say that they decided that they wanted the object back, which in a normal, non-specified, loan arrangement, they probably would have the right to do.

Les


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 Post subject: Re: Restoring the "Black Diamond"
PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 4:47 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:28 am
Posts: 2732
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
"Permanant Loan" is not an accepted term amongst museum professionals, largely due to its ambiguity. You should use phrases like "Long Term Custodial Loan" if you are putting together such a deal. There has been plenty of litigation (certain camelback not included) about the term Permanant Loan and what it means. Of course, in today's world, best practices would suggest that you record such agreements in writing. When in dobt, consult a compotent legal professional with such questions.

With regard to operation, it is not being considered. Reportedly the Reading had to use a boy to fire it, as the space between the coal bunker and the fire door is rather narrow.

It should be noted again that MOT is a NATIONAL collection, and thus whether said locomotive is "intrinsic" to the state of Missouri has no bearing on its significance to the collection.

Glad to see it going indoors.

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David M. Wilkins

"They love him, gentlemen, and they respect him, not only for himself, for his character, for his integrity and judgment and iron will, but they love him most of all for the enemies he has made."


Last edited by wilkinsd on Tue Dec 27, 2011 4:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Restoring the "Black Diamond"
PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 4:49 pm 

Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2004 7:57 am
Posts: 2598
Location: Faulkland, Delaware
This is fantastic news. This little engine has been neglected way too long. Will the new building be climate controlled with fire protection? It might do the museum well to create a Facebook page for her with news, photos, and a Paypal link to make donations toward her restoration. Maybe even a poll as to who would be willing to donate toward an operational restoration.

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Tom Gears
Wilmington, DE

Maybe it won't work out. But maybe seeing if it does will be the best adventure ever.


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 Post subject: Re: Restoring the "Black Diamond"
PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 5:01 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:28 am
Posts: 2732
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
Yes, the new building will be climate controlled and have fire protection. It part of the new visitor center at the Museum. Information can be found here:

http://transportmuseumassociation.org/c ... mpaign.htm

With regard to donations, the Transporation Museum Association always accepts donations.

Why does everything have to run? Of what use would a Facebook poll be? I could vote 10,000 times saying I'd donate, but not actualy pony up the money when the time comes.

If one wants an operational small steamer at MOT there are other, more suitable candidates that are not as rare.

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David M. Wilkins

"They love him, gentlemen, and they respect him, not only for himself, for his character, for his integrity and judgment and iron will, but they love him most of all for the enemies he has made."


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 Post subject: Re: Restoring the "Black Diamond"
PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 5:52 pm 

Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2004 7:57 am
Posts: 2598
Location: Faulkland, Delaware
Thanks for the link David. Real steam is always a big fan favorite. I understand how rare she is and she should be protected. As for a fan page, most most museums and tourist railroads are totally missing out on the power of social media. Reading people are a special breed and you are leaving money on the table by not reaching out to each one of them through every available channel. I will discuss this more in a post about social media I'm working on.

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Tom Gears
Wilmington, DE

Maybe it won't work out. But maybe seeing if it does will be the best adventure ever.


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 Post subject: Re: Restoring the "Black Diamond"
PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 6:46 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:25 pm
Posts: 2559
Location: The Atlantic Coast Line
Ron,

This is great news for Black Diamond and MOT.

Regarding the new building - is it being built in the cleared area "down the hill" from the current buildings that I recall from my visit a few years ago? Will the current streetcar line be extended to serve the new building? Have any of the stored streetcars been designated for display in the new hall?

Wesley


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 Post subject: Re: Restoring the "Black Diamond"
PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 6:54 pm 

Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:25 pm
Posts: 6482
wilkinsd wrote:
Yes, the new building will be climate controlled and have fire protection. It part of the new visitor center at the Museum. Information can be found here:

http://transportmuseumassociation.org/c ... mpaign.htm

If one wants an operational small steamer at MOT there are other, more suitable candidates that are not as rare.


David -

The drawing shows some equipment in the new building, but probably "generic". Has MOT decided just what is going in there yet, besides the "Black Diamond"?

Also, in addition to Wesley's questions, I wonder what "more suitable (small steamer) candidates" you might be thinking about?

Finally, thanks for your comments about 'Permanent Loan' terminology.

Les


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 Post subject: Re: Restoring the "Black Diamond"
PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 10:28 pm 

Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 2:54 am
Posts: 1078
Location: Califoothills / Midwest Prairies / PNW
I believe it is incorrect to say that the "Black Diamond" is the only surviving steam inspection car. It may be the only Class 1 railroad and major locomotive builder's steam inspection car around.

A much simpler one, the "Gertie Buck," exists at the Shelburne Museum. I am curious about this rare engine, and if it was originally built as an inspection car or that was a rebuild of an older engine.
http://www.waymarking.com/waymarks/WM7N3Z_The_Gertie_Buck_Shelburne_Museum_VT
Image


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 Post subject: Re: Restoring the "Black Diamond"
PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 10:20 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:28 am
Posts: 2732
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
The new Visitors Center is being built in phases. The part being built now will contain the new libary and archives, museum office space, a gift shop, rest rooms and (I think) some meeting space as well as the aforementioned Black Diamond.

The architect's rendering shows an addition to this building with glass curtain walls. This part hasn't been built yet. The current project is just one phase in a multi year plan to improve MOT facilities and the museum expierence. In other words, it all isn't going to happen overnight.

The last time I heard, the plan is to eventually extend the trolley line down to the new visitor's center and install a loop. As above, this is a multi year plan, so there is no firm timetable that I have been made aware of.

With regard to other equipment, since that part of the building hasn't been built yet, I do not know if other equipment has been selected, including traction equipment. I would be, however, interested in seeing the first GE steeplecab or the Purdue Interurban Test Car go into the new building, but I am a volunteer and not a decision maker. I am sure whatever equipment goes into the new building, there will be a very good reason to include it.

Since I moved to St. Louis just about 8 years ago, I've seen a lot of positive change at MOT, and a real drive to enhance the visitor experience. The new visitor's center is just one part of the plan.

MOT does have a Facebook presence. The people who do it, do a very good job of sharing tid bits of transportation history. They don't always tie in the history to things in the collection, like a post one day on Eddy Clock locomotives that failed to mention the one in the collection. Overall, it is a good effort though.

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David M. Wilkins

"They love him, gentlemen, and they respect him, not only for himself, for his character, for his integrity and judgment and iron will, but they love him most of all for the enemies he has made."


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 Post subject: Re: Restoring the "Black Diamond"
PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 10:33 am 
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Posts: 1263
Location: Eagan, MN
o anderson wrote:
I believe it is incorrect to say that the "Black Diamond" is the only surviving steam inspection car. It may be the only Class 1 railroad and major locomotive builder's steam inspection car around.

A much simpler one, the "Gertie Buck," exists at the Shelburne Museum. I am curious about this rare engine, and if it was originally built as an inspection car or that was a rebuild of an older engine.


Thanks for pointing this one out. It wasn't known to us at steamlocomotive.info and we've added it to your database and are soliciting photos of it to illustrate it.

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Doug Bailey, Webmaster http://www.steamlocomotive.info


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