Greetings!

I was wondering if anyone might have a set of plans to make up wood, "Morton-like" railroad step boxes. I thought I would ask first before reverse engineering one of the old ones we have at our museum.

We would like to make a bunch of them as a fall/winter project so we'll have them to put around our museum next year allowing us to have authentic steps into some of our display cars. Plus, it will add to the continuity of the displays around our yard. Currently, we have a whole bunch of different types of steps which people have put together over the years. While functional, they are not prototypical, provide no feeling of continuity and some are not as well designed as a standard railroad step box. For cars higher than a traditional single step box, we do have regular sets of steps with handrails.

Any help would be appreciated and I would be willing to cover any duplication and mailing costs.

Thanks!

Until later,
Chris Hauf
Rochester & Genesee Valley Railroad Museum



Rochester & Genesee Valley Railroad Museum

crhauf@frontiernet.net

> Greetings!

> I was wondering if anyone might have a set
> of plans to make up wood,
> "Morton-like" railroad step boxes.
> I thought I would ask first before reverse
> engineering one of the old ones we have at
> our museum.

> We would like to make a bunch of them as a
> fall/winter project so we'll have them to
> put around our museum next year allowing us
> to have authentic steps into some of our
> display cars. Plus, it will add to the
> continuity of the displays around our yard.
> Currently, we have a whole bunch of
> different types of steps which people have
> put together over the years. While
> functional, they are not prototypical,
> provide no feeling of continuity and some
> are not as well designed as a standard
> railroad step box. For cars higher than a
> traditional single step box, we do have
> regular sets of steps with handrails.

> Any help would be appreciated and I would be
> willing to cover any duplication and mailing
> costs.

> Thanks!

> Until later,
> Chris Hauf
> Rochester & Genesee Valley Railroad
> Museum

Chris: One of our members (Bob Jachim) has made a number of wooden step boxes (similar to the one pictured) for our museum. I will talk to him tomorrow and ask him if he has any plans.

Les Beckman (Hoosier Valley Railroad Museum/North Judson, Indiana)


midlandblb@cs.com

> Chris: One of our members (Bob Jachim) has
> made a number of wooden step boxes (similar
> to the one pictured) for our museum. I will
> talk to him tomorrow and ask him if he has
> any plans.

> Les Beckman (Hoosier Valley Railroad
> Museum/North Judson, Indiana)

This is a little further afield, but what do you do for handicaped folks that want to get into the cars? Do you have a portable ramp?

dan

svry@attbi.com

> This is a little further afield, but what do
> you do for handicaped folks that want to get
> into the cars? Do you have a portable ramp?

> dan

Dan: Good question! We have a transfer type caboose (the type with platforms on each end and a small box like structure in the middle) on which we have installed a wheel chair lift. There are tiedowns on the platform with the lift and also inside the car for wheelchairs. In addition, we have installed a metal roof over the platform end with the lift and tie downs for protection from the weather. In addition to wheelchairs, we have also used the lift for people who are somewhat mobile but cannot climb the stairs to gain access to the caboose.

Les Beckman (HVRM)

midlandblb@cs.com

Dan,

That is a good question and as a small museum, an issue we wish we had more resources to help solve. First, some of our display cars are simply not handicap (wheelchair) accesible due to their construction like our cabooses for example. However, in the future, we have thought of making some of our other cars like our baggage car display accessible via a ramp and car height platform running the length of the car. With their large door, entrance and egress is easily solved. That platform could also serve to allow people to at least see into other cars that are not easily accessible also. Many museums have such car height and length platforms. Very useful for restoration also! I seem to remember walking on a set at IRM a few years back in one of their car barns. Right now, sadly, we are limited by available property, manpower, and of course, funds to construct such an extensive platform. Someday...

With all that said, the cornerstone of our museum is a former Erie Railroad depot and it is handicap accessible. When we redid the foundation around the depot 10 years back and thus the concrete aprons around it, we made the concrete ramp right up to one of the depot doors so wheelchairs can access our depot.

On another part of our operations away from our museum, our Fall Foliage Express train rides which we do with the Ontario Midland Railroad, we have a handicap ramp so we can bring wheel chairs and those who have trouble climbing stairs up to the vestibule of one of our NYC stainless coaches where we can then get them into the car into a special area where we have removed seats to accomodate wheelchairs. Not as slick as Steamtown's Jersey Central combine with the wheel chair lift in the baggage end, but functional nonetheless. Actually, we own a thank you to our host railroad, the OMID, for constructing our ramp. It has been a great help and really improves the visitor experience.

I hope that helps a little. We are very sensitive of the issue since one of our previously very active members had some medical problems a few years back which has forced him to be in a wheelchair. As he comes out with some frequency to visit us and tell us what we are all doing wrong ( ;) ) during the warmer months, we are aware of our strengths and weaknesses in that area. He was also one of our best heavy equipment operators, and we wish we had the time and resources to figure out how to modify one of our Cat dozers to let him "go to work" again. He was poetry in motion on a dozer, crane or cable shovel!

Thanks for asking, and we are always interested in hearing what others have done.

Until later,
Chris

> This is a little further afield, but what do
> you do for handicaped folks that want to get
> into the cars? Do you have a portable ramp?

> dan


Rochester Chapter NRHS Fall Foliage Excursions

crhauf@frontiernet.net

Chris,

Thanks for the response. We have found it is not only the handicap that use the ramps, but just about anyone having a little or lot of difficulty with steps.

I took some flak when we put in a permanent wood ramp at our McEwen Depot because it was perceived as detracting from our historical looking depot. Actually the depot followed no specific historic depot on the SVRy, but that aside, it did change the appearance.

After building the ramp, we found very few people go directly to the coach, but enter on the ramp and walk the length of the train (5 to 6 cars) to get to the coach. In September we get mostly elderly, and even though they don't need wheelchairs, they still have difficulty getting around. At 65 I am having knee problems and I understand their plight.

The point is, even though we built the ramp to help a few needing it, all ages use it. The only exception is the caboose which is not handicap accessible. Of course a narrow gauge caboose doesn't hold many people so this is not a large problem.

Construction will begin soon our new Sumpter Depot. Likely everyone will have to use the steps, but we will definitely need a portable ramp for those that need it. I suspect it will become, like our fixed ramps, popular with all ages. I would like to see ideas on an easy to handle, easy to store, unobtrusive portable ramp design. Any ideas out there?

dan

svry@attbi.com

> Chris,

> We have found it is not only the handicap that > use the ramps, but just about anyone having a >little or lot of difficulty with steps.

> dan

At Thronateeska Heritage Center, we had a moderate length wood ramp (non-ADA compliant) that allowed everyone to get into our baggage car to see the model train layout. But when we had to move everything to rebuild the crumbling track beneath the display cars, the ramp was first moved, then demolished because it was not very stable. Now I am in the delima of trying to reopen the layout for a temporary (unknown) period at a temporary location. Since it will be temporary, I have leaned toward steps, but some are suggesting an ADA-compliant ramp. This would have to be very large, and would later have to be moved. Are there any specific regulatory or legal requirements relative to this?

Stephen


syfrettinc@bellsouth.net

> At Thronateeska Heritage Center, we had a
> moderate length wood ramp (non-ADA
> compliant) that allowed everyone to get into
> our baggage car to see the model train
> layout. But when we had to move everything
> to rebuild the crumbling track beneath the
> display cars, the ramp was first moved, then
> demolished because it was not very stable.
> Now I am in the delima of trying to reopen
> the layout for a temporary (unknown) period
> at a temporary location. Since it will be
> temporary, I have leaned toward steps, but
> some are suggesting an ADA-compliant ramp.
> This would have to be very large, and would
> later have to be moved. Are there any
> specific regulatory or legal requirements
> relative to this?

> Stephen

When we built our ramps, we found there are regs, or guidlines. As I recall, since we are not a government entity, we did not have to strictly comply. The ADA does have specs on the slope and width. If we had complied strictly with the regs, the ramp would have been half again as long. It would not have fit into the area we had. We spoke with ADA folks who said they were pleased to see us install a ramp, regardless of whether or not it complied with their specs. When told the slope, they were ok with it.

I suggest you call the nearest office of ADA and talk with them. We found them to be helpful and reasonable.

dan

svry@attbi.com

Stephen - look for a donor to give you a forklift, then make an elelvator out of an old pallet. The forklift will allow you to have on site rigging capabilities which is always handy when you have no disabled visitors to attend to.

Dave

irondave@bellsouth.net

I cannot speak for others, but at Tennessee Valley Railroad Museum, our two stations have platforms which were built for the purpose of loading wheelchair bound persons. The platform at the East Chattanooga station is historically accurate as a wood frame building of it's specific design and era would have had a freight/baggage platform with a ramp to permit the handling of freight and baggage. Our other station has a large service platform which meets ADA standards. It is generally used as a loading platform for the dining and commissary cars.

Most people would think that getting disabled persons on and off the train would be the sticking point for accomodating persons with wheelchairs. Operational experiance has pointed out that this is only the more visable problem. Most of our cars have aisles of less than 20" width at either end of the cars. Under present law, operators of cars that predate ADA that are classified as museum operators are exempt from any ADA requirements. If we were a commercial operator, we would be required to meet ADA requirements. While we are keen to provide the best service to our visitors, our statement of purpose (as it currently stands) does not allow for the modification of the cars for such things as lifts or seat removal since that would not be historically correct for a railroad of our nature.

Safety issues should also be considered. Due to the operational limitations we have, certain policies concerning the handling of disabled passengers have been written, revised and posted in the ticket offices and waiting rooms of our stations. These signs inform the visitor what services he or she can expect and what conditions the disabled passenger must meet in order to be transported due to safety reasons. One such point is that persons needing assistance must have an attendant present as our staff are prohibited from handling wheelchairs or lifting disabled persons (occupational safety and liability concerns).

Wheelchairs brought on board must hbe capable of folding so that they can be stored in the baggage area at the end of the car and oversized or motorized wheelchairs may not be carried on the train. The reason for that is we have found that they are often very difficult to manuver in small aisles and are often left in such a manner that movement through the car or use of a vestibule are impeded. Our railroad operates through a good sized tunnel and with steam locomotives, if there was to be an emergency stop in the tunnel, the crew would have to be able to get through the train quickly to handle the situation or to move passengers into the air conditioned cars to prevent asphixiation. In that scenario, a motorized wheelchair or oversized wheelchair either partially or totally blocking an aisle or vestibule could seriously complicate the situation. Finally, none of the stations on our other routes are provided with any form of platform (other than cinder) and any passenger detraining at one of those points would have to be able to at least climb or descend stairs.

awalker2002@comcast.net

I should also mention that any ramp would require some form of protection if it is used to load trains and be designed so that if the crew inadvertantly forgets to remove it before starting the train, the damage will be nonexistant or minimal. This has happened to our crews on several occasions. One of our conductors ruined a steel Southern Railway step box and almost lost a finger when he was preparing to step off the train at the East Chattanooga station. The box was extending just slightly outside the car door and was caught between the car and the platform as the train passed it. If you use a freight platform setup, remember that this will place the platform less than a foot from the side of the car. Ours is only about four inches from the car at either station and these are equipped with close clearance signs.

awalker2002@comcast.net

One other point to be considered is that the wheelchair and occupant may need to be evacuated in an emergency situation. In doing some preliminary display layout design for a local model railroad, ADA and fire code figured highly among our concerns. While our building had two exits, only one is suitable for ADA access, leaving the thought in the back of our minds that if it came down to it, the person would have to be bodily removed, wheelchair or no.

In a railroad situation, this is even more problematic, and runs afoul of the desire to comply with open access and yet providing safe transport for all.

Michael Seitz

Missoula MT

"The reason for that is we have found that they are often very difficult to manuver in small aisles and are often left in such a manner
that movement through the car or use of a
vestibule are impeded. Our railroad operates
through a good sized tunnel and with steam
locomotives, if there was to be an emergency
stop in the tunnel, the crew would have to
be able to get through the train quickly to
handle the situation or to move passengers
into the air conditioned cars to prevent
asphixiation. In that scenario, a motorized
wheelchair or oversized wheelchair either
partially or totally blocking an aisle or
vestibule could seriously complicate the
situation."