Buy that man a drink!

Well said Mr. Pincus.

The difference between Mr. Frye (the person spearheading the Southern E unit restoration) and Mr. Cornillie is that Mr. Frye is actually participating in railway preservation. He has a good, realistic boots on the ground perspective of what it's like to work on and restore the unit. Mr. Cornille, while a nice guy (I've met him in person) has the perspective of an armchair restoration expert.

Railway preservation is not writing flowery statements on a railway preservation messageboard.

I've saved the program on the link, and yes, it makes great sense and resounds of dispassionate analysis...but...
The program is a collection of many possible problems and most probable problems, and as such, is useful before beginning a railroad restoration. I agree, each of these elements most be weighed and decided upon. There is the real possibility that not all these issue will arise, and that some restorations do not require tears. If you looked at everything that might go wrong in a day, why would you get out of bed?
I like the Powerpoint because it shines the light of reality onto a project before beginning it, but fear never accomplished much positive.

I am not necessarily endorsing the preservation of this particular locomotive.

While I fail to see the reason in a full blown restoration to working order, there are lots of positives in saving the loco in a museum with a (relatively) simple cosmetic restoration. It's a worthwhile loco type (hardly over represented in preservation) and it doesn't need to pull passenger/ tourist trains- that would not be representative of it's working career anyway- but it would need to be the right museum. Lake Superior or perhaps preserved side by side with the U25C.

Wes

Wes,
As rational a thought as I've ever seen on these pages. It doesn't have to run.

Richard,

Been there-done that. Couldn't agree more with the presentation. In 20-20 hindsight, the scope of the effort should've been a lot more modest-a cosmetic overhaul and a paint job-and leave it that.

I note that groups such as the EL Dining Car guys seem to be very successful at their efforts. Could a very tight focus and total commitment to what they focus upon be the reason ?

Andrew

BTW, the 1804 is devoid of both engine and GT-586 main generator. 586's don't exactly grow on trees these days. A loco that has sat for 20 years is probably not the best situation to invest large sums of capital. I'd also bet the copper thieves have picked it over well. And those tri-mount trucks...

DPK

I like to have a can do attitude, I really do. Unless you find a very rich fan who wants to sponsor this baby you can just buy an HO scale model and call it a day.

David,

I'm glad you think that I'm a nice guy. However, just because you have met me in person does not mean that you know what my preservation activities are and have been. If you wish to dispute something that I have contributed here, I welcome your response. However, your labeling me as an "armchair restoration expert" is neither accurate nor germane to the discussion of Alco RSD-12 locomotives.

Getting back to the topic of LS&I RSD12 1804:

Some of the points raised by others are valid. Especially about the mention of surplus 16-251's. Those would be extremely useful for other preserved engines including the NKP RSD12 at Bellevue, Ohio and the GBW C430 at Green Bay, Wisconsin.

There is a slight chance (very slight) too that both Basic Marine and maybe even LS&I might help in moving the engine to Marquette (it would be hard for me to believe that there isn't at least some people in management who weren't fond of their Alco power). It would be a good public relations gesture and might even relieve Basic Marine the burden of scrapping the engine.

If worst comes to worst, this locomotive may represent a very rare source of Alco electrical parts for GBW 2407 at IRM and other preserved Alco's. Especially Alco excitation cards.

-Andrew Cornillie

Andrew,

Perhaps my calling you an "armchair preservationist" is a bit harsh, but I will say this. You have a lot of enthusiasm, which is good, but it is not tempered in reality, which is bad. There are plenty of "parts kits" and failed restorations nationwide that suffered from having too much enthusiasm, not tempered by reality and experience.

Until your last post, the only thing you "contributed" were unrealistic ideas and a refusal to even consider reasonable retorts from experienced people. Now, perhaps after reading the PowerPoint, you've come around and conceded that this unit's highest and best use may be a parts supply (if any useful parts are left), shows that reality has finally set in.

What happened to the "this unit MUST be preserved!" and "Nobody does diesel restorations correctly, this could be an accurate representation of 1970s diesel" etc, and so-on and so-on? When others pointed out the unrealistic nature of these proposals, you retorted with an idea of a state-hoping parts finding expedition, culling parts from many extant units to make this whole again.

It is good to dream, but unless those dreams are grounded in reality, they never really go beyond dreams, or become nightmares. It is easy to write up flowery justifications for a certain piece of equipment and how it might represent this, or preserve that, but until you can help put those actions into reality, they are just unrealistic dreams.

If pre-Century series second generation Alco diesel power from midwestern railroads really turns you on, consider other causes, such as maybe spearheading an effort to keep IRM's RSD15 in LS&I paint, or the upkeep of the GB&W unit in Green Bay. Both are already "captive" and someone with some enthusiasm can maybe help preserve those units for future generations.

This has been an interesting thread. I'm involved with keeping an old Alco running,and my opinion leads strongly to what Howard posted. As CMO of our organization, I'm facing partial rewiring and radiator replacement just to keep a "restored and operational" engine ready for it's next public appearance in a couple of months. Until you get out there and actually do hands on restoration, you don't have a clue of the commitment level that is required. Man-hours are the most expensive requirement, the parts are actually the cheaper part of the equation. You need to have either patient & dedicated volunteers or sucessful fundraising. Preferably both.

Regards,

Dear David,

I wish I had the bankroll to bring you to Britain, Germany, and even Brightside, CA to introduce to some truly remarkable Diesel locomotive preservation efforts. It might be worth looking around to see what I can pawn, just so I could see the reactions you would get when you tell them that their efforts are "not tempered in reality" and "the unrealistic nature of these proposals."

However, I don't think its really worth sharing information about these restorations and how they have developed and carried out - lest this be labeled as more "flowery justifications."

Also, on a personal note, I actually put some time into making a post here, and there really is no reason to fabricate quotes that are attributed to me.



Really, is it too much to ask to keep the discussion focused on preserving an Alco RSD-12 rather than the fabricated biography of someone who is making a post?



Andrew Cornillie

It is sad to see locomotives that could be interesting museum displays go to scrap, but frankly right now is not a very good time for museums to be starting new and expensive projects. If you want a pretty good indication of the future, take a look at the linked chart below and draw a line through the center of the data points and observe the trend in the last couple of months, or hit the "four week average" button for a closer grouping of the data points. This data provides a pretty good indicator of the "pace" of industry and the US economy and where it is headed:

http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHa ... PUPUS2&f=W

PC

Great presentation, but I see three components that may apply to other projects. I would say I got the first two components nailed down while working on the campaign to save the Richardson depot in East Brookfield.the first two are fairly simple; the lack of support (my definition of support is providing some form of suggestion, going as far as to assist with the effort) and we had local politics working against us (and that is saying far to much considering the timespan between now and when the depot was demolished!). Even with a memorial being planned utilizing the surviving components, Dan and Dennis were informed that we were going to get the components for us to use in either a museum setting or memorial of some sort. However, the town is keeping the surviving components, and wants us to come on board as "consultants" to design this memorial to the depot. There lies the third missing component; effective message of the preserved artifact. The town wants to build this memorial to represent the Richardson depot, which while good in intent, is (in our collective opinion) not a good useage of the surviving materials. While we're game for a memorial, and the depot was of historical significance to East Brookfield, one must remember that it was insignificant in the grand scheme of things. Now, if it was to honor the overall railroading heritage of East Brookfield, past and present, then it would better be representative of that railroading heritage, and I have no doubt that Dan and Dennis would get on board. I know I'd be onboard with the plans if that was the message (Dennis, in all his wisdom, managed to show me his argument and convince me that the message wasn't the best) that the memorial represented.
Dylan M. Lambert

Don't forget that the same factors that figured in the retirement of so-called 'minority' power carry additional weight when the locomotive is transitioned into a preservation environment.

Loss of expertise (on the electrical side, especially) and a dearth of renewal parts are just a few that come to mind.

At the class 1 shop I worked at, there are just a few folks who even remember Alcos ('a constant source of overtime'), U series GE's, early EMD's and the like. Even Dash-2 experience is at a premium, as that series dates back to 1972-some forty years ago !!!

I recall a GP-9 coming in to the shop for some contract work-and there wasn't one person there who was familiar with V-I transition and how to adjust it. One of the old timers recalled that the required test set had been scrapped years ago.

The same loss of legacy product knowledge can also be attributed to the builders themselves.

As for parts, both the builders appear to concentrate their efforts on supporting their most recent production-much of which operates under some sort of warranty or maintenance agreement. By way of example, EMD Dash-2 cards (either new or UTEX) come from an outside supplier. Some of the cards have been completely re-designed on account obsolesense of certain components. So,in some cases, the UTEX option is ultimately eliminated-and the end-user much purchase new-at a hefty expense.

Gary mentions Alco radiators. Having done a survey of suppliers for these items years ago, I determined that demand dried up so long ago-nobody keeps any of this material in stock. All must be purchased MTO...and are priced accordingly

I also recall GE LV66J10 (a common part in an Alco application) relays moving upward in price from 300 bucks some twenty five years ago to over 1200 bucks today. They don't stock 'em either-last check on lead time was some 30 weeks.
There was a GE AF-41? interlock (used on the GF contactor) which couldn't weigh but a few ounces and came in at over 1000 bucks.

dpk

EMD partisans will have an easier go of it, as the aftermarket is far better developed than for Alco or GE material...but you are still going to pay dearly.

Another item that comes to mind is the GE electro-hydraulic governor as used on Alco 244 and 251 powered locos. To the best of my knowledge, there is one person on earth who has the expertise, parts and equipment to keep these things up to snuff. He has even worked up some MODS to deal with some of the long-standing design and operational issues with that item. GE doesn't support that item anymore, with the most recent parts production (25 yrs. ago) being done in the model shop. When the last parts supply runs out-good luck.

And so it goes...

DPK

In my day job, I'm the workshop coordinator of an Australian railway workshop. This workshop (operating in a 42-bay roundhouse, opened in 1947) carries out complete overhauls and rebuilds of ALCo locomotives. We have three DL531 locos and are rebuilding eighteen such locos for a local operator. These 48 class locos, of a design first built in Australia in 1959, are quite simple, rugged and fool-proof locos.

They also take thousands of hours to rebuild completely. The locos came to us in operable condition, yet most of them had to be stripped completely and rebuilt. Engines, traction motors, bogies, cabs, generators, pilots and MUs, toilets, canopies, battery boxes, handrails and bodywork renewal and overhaul has been needed on them all.

As a commercial concern, we have all of the required equipment, trained and experienced staff, documentation and resources to carry out such work. It is deeply complicated work, and it still takes months of full-time work. Good luck to anyone wanting to do it without the required backup.

As an example, we took this ALCo locomotive;



...and rebuilt it. Here is the renumbered loco almost a year later;



Good for twenty more years of use.

Good fun. Frustrating, maddening, time consuming and expensive, but good fun!

Cheers,
Matt