Are most of the steam operations in this country state parks or get state or federal funds?
Or are most private?

I know TSRR is a state park and therefore gets state funds and Im told if it werent for that and the use of prison labor they would not be able to make it.

So how do private groups stay afloat?

(I hope I get more response that my last two posts)
Alan

adofmsu@aol.com

> There's a mixture of entities. Here in PA, the Strasburg and Wanamakers Kempton and Southern are private. The RR Museum of Pa is state-run although it is static ony. Steamtown is federal.

Even there its not clearcut. Steamtown NHS is a federal operation but operates over the Lackawanna County Rail Authority (a municipal "enterprise fund" and in conjuction with the LCRA's designated operator the Delaware Lackawanna RR-which is private.

As for how do they stay afloat? If you run relatively short trips at low speed, you don't need to have immaculately manicured roadbed, can run in non-dispatched and/or dark terrtitory etc. Additionally, the equipment will require somewhat less maintenance under these conitions.

Additionally, there are "value-added" services such as dinner trains, souvenir sales, etc.

Of course if you aren't new to this board-you know just how many posts are dedicated to the very idea you ask about, e.g. solvency and profitibability.

superheater@beer.com

> Are most of the steam operations in this
> country state parks or get state or federal
> funds?
> Or are most private?

My impression is that the majority of operating steam is still "private" but even when associated with the state as the Heber Valley Railroad is, realize that there is no guarantee of funding.

Had a gentleman stop me in the parking lot last Friday as I was on my way over to 'hostle' the train who made the opening statement to me, "you can't tell me that you do all this without some kind of subsidy from the state..." I assured him that we do.

The Heber Valley Railroad is a quasi-state agency. We are not part of, nor under the jurisdiction of the State Parks, nor the State Department of Transportation (although we lease our ROW from them). In the early 90's the State created us, granted 3/4 of our requested startup funding and told us we were on our own (and don't come back!!). We did well for some eight years returning to the state after the announcement of the 2002 Winter Games was made, requesting the remaining 25% of our original grant which was combined with some other matching funds in order to build our depot, pave our parking, and otherwise prepare for the Olympics.

As with the other railroads in the West, we have had to deal with the dry, fire season--curtailing trips down the canyon until just a week and a half ago. But as I posted earlier, when dealt lemons make lemonade. Our Murder Mystery and Sunset Special BBQ trains have by and large been sold out this season and we have extended their run an additional 3-4 weeks. Big plans are under way for our Haunted Canyon trains for Halloween and early indications are that the Polar Express will be sold out again this year.

And then there's something new in the wind....

(tantalizing pause)

What are some of the reasons that we are able to "make it?"

1. We have to run like a privately-owned business.

2. I think we have great organization -- from the board of directors, business managers, marketing staff, and shop/operations crew.

3. We have the three most important things for a "business" -- location, location, and location. We are within an hour's drive of the major population base of the Wasatch Front (Provo to Ogden).

4. We try to be creative in our marketing. We offer charter trains to businesses, large groups, etc.

5. In Operations, we have a 'training' (pardon the pun, but it is especially applicable here) program that includes written manuals and texts. (Does your railroad have a lubrication manual specific for the equipment you run? -- we do! Do you have manuals for conductors/brakemen, for firemen, and for engineers?) Yes, there are even tests administered. The advantage to this is that it gets everyone on the same page and aids in the maintanence and preservation of the equipment for which we are but stewards.

Chris, John, and others familiar with the Heber Valley, what in your opinion are some of the other reasons that we have been able to "make it" when the others like CATS, TSRR, etc. must rely on subsidies from their respective states?

sc 'doc' lewis



The Heber Valley Railroad
utweyesguy@aol.com

> Are most of the steam operations in this
> country state parks or get state or federal
> funds?
> Or are most private?

> I know TSRR is a state park and therefore
> gets state funds and Im told if it werent
> for that and the use of prison labor they
> would not be able to make it.

> So how do private groups stay afloat?

> (I hope I get more response that my last two
> posts)
> Alan

Illinois Railway Museum is a non-(emphasis NON)-profit corporation, which is entirely self-funded with revenues from admissions, donations, store and refreshment sales, etc. The ONLY state funding we receive is a minor subsidy for advertising, covering just a small portion of that particular expense.

Keep in mind that we must come up with $1+ million each year just to open the gates (and judging by the current liability insurance crisis, we may need a hell of a lot more...).

Would we love to have more corporate funding? You bet, I'd take more (read, "any"). More state funding? Probably not, because all government funding comes with enough strings to build an orchestra. Sure, we'll take an occasional matching grant for building construction or similar (and grit our teeth when dealing with the paperwork), but the bottom line is that WE must bring in enough to continue operations.

It's fortunate that we don't open our annual budget meetings to the public (though come to think of it, we might draw the prize-fighting crowd...), as it has been known to turn quite ugly as department after department gets 50%, 40%, or even 20% of what it "Must" have to continue operations. But lo and behold, each year our volunteers do the impossible and largely live within our means.

The bottom line is that we do the best we can with what we can. No, we don't paint enough equipment, or restore equipment fast enough, or (more to the point of your post) run enough steam locomotives or run often enough to satisfy the many critics, but we do what we can. The best proof of a system that works is that 2003 will be our 50th anniversary.


kevinmccabe@avenew.com

If we loosely define "state operation" to mean that the operation is any kind of arm of a state agency--i.e. the budget is run by the state, any paid staff answers to the state government via being a branch of the State Parks, State Museum Commission, etc.--the answer is "almost none".

Examples of ones that ARE--and most of these are static museums, not operating lines--include: the California State RR Museum and its affiliated Sierra operation; the Cumbres & Toltec Scenic, shared between Colorado and New Mexico; Cass Scenic RR in West Va.; the North Carolina Transportation Museum in Spencer; the RR Museum of Pa.; and the Federal sites at Steamtown and Cresson/Horseshoe Curve in Pa. and Promontory, Utah.

This is not to say that there isn't some degree of indirect government support at many locations--such as non-profit tax-exempt status, a city or state improving an access road or grant money being offered--but for the most part, operations such as the B&O Museum, the Kentucky Railway Museum, and Indiana Transportation Museum, despite the names, are completely on their own.

lner4472@bcpl.net

> If we loosely define "state
> operation" to mean that the operation
> is any kind of arm of a state agency--i.e.
> the budget is run by the state, any paid
> staff answers to the state government via
> being a branch of the State Parks, State
> Museum Commission, etc.--the answer is
> "almost none".

The Huckleberry Railroad is a County Park - it is owned by the Genesee County Parks and Recreation Commission. There are still times that I have trouble with the idea of being a government employee. And yes, I have a regular budget, and a decent shop, and other benefits of being a county department. The down side is the policies and procedures I have to follow, and which are frustrating at times. The Railroad is SO different from anything else in the county and park system that at times it feels as though my main job is just explaining to others why we do the things we do. But we do have a certain amount of security by virtue of being one of the top tourist attractions in the State of Michigan.


Martyhuck@aol.com

> Are most of the steam operations in this
> country state parks or get state or federal
> funds?
> Or are most private?
> So how do private groups stay afloat?

The SVRy (or SVRR) is non-profit operating without government aid. Since we are all volunteers (exception: temporary depot agent), all profits go toward operations and yard maintenance. We are either life members ($1,000) or pay annually. I like to tell passengers I pay $35/yr for sustaining membership, and I'm allowed to work all I want! Our operations are self-funded.

For expansion, new facilities and major overhauls, we depend on major grants from private funds. We have received federal funding for our backshop. And, we will probably request federal and state funding for our proposed 5 mile extension.

If we had to pay salaries for train crews, our fees would be considerably higher, and we would most likely require state funding. Our active members come from as far away as Medford, OR, Vancouver, BC and Palmer, Alaska to provide weekend crews.

svry@attbi.com

Tennessee Valley Railroad Museum is a non-profit, educational corporation which operates on the income received from public operations and associated retail sales and donations. Contract shop work provides some additional income, along with occational grants. We are in no way associated with the State of Tennessee, other than being located in it. Tennessee, like many other states, has seen a severe budget crunch. Last year, the resulting cutbacks shuttered all state parks for the entire summer. That should be able to speak to the reasons that state sponsorship, affiliation or dependency is not the best idea when it can be avoided.

awalker2002@comcast.net

> Are most of the steam operations in this
> country state parks or get state or federal
> funds?
> Or are most private?

I work for one of that small number of government funded transportation museums. And let me tell you it is better that the majority of railroad and ship museums are the private corporations that they are.
Government is just not responsive enough to keep historic equipment operational. Too many rules, too much worry about what is PC.

Two government program that has done good things for historic preservation are the ICE-TEA and TEA-21 programs. In some states they have put a lot of money into the hands of preservationist. I hope that the programs get renewed this year.

Ted Miles

ted_miles@nps.gov

Dear Alan:
The Valley Railroad Co. leases operating rights over trackage which is owned by the State of Connecticut. The enabling legislation by which we were created describes the property as a linear state park.
We are responcible for maintaining the track, buildings, etc. Occationally, we have been successful in obtaining help from the state with major projects (bridge work for instance, $1.2 million, of course the bridges belong to the state anyway).
We have traditionally had a good working relationships with the various agencies (state and federal) that regulate us.
J. David


jdconrad@snet.net

> The Huckleberry Railroad is a County Park -
> it is owned by the Genesee County Parks and
> Recreation Commission. But we do have a certain
> amount of security by virtue of being one of
> the top tourist attractions in the State of
> Michigan.

AMEN. Keep 'em rollin' Marty, and let the dollars speak for themselves!


Port Huron Museum

tjgaffney@phmuseum.org

The Museum of Transportation in St. Louis has been a county park since about 1981, after starting as an independent museum in 1944. The county saved the place, but there are both pluses and minuses as mentioned above. We also are unique within the county system (no other park has an accounting code for railroad track maintenance, for example). There are definite advantages to being able to draw on the equipment and personnel available, avoiding rentals, but we also have to loan ours out. Let's just say it's a mixed blessing.

Museum of Transportation
rdgoldfede@aol.com

> Are most of the steam operations in this
> country state parks

No. Maybe 10-15% at most are state parks or are owned or managed by states. At least one is a National Site.

>or get state or federal funds?

Some do; most don't.

> Or are most private?

The majority are private; many are non-profits.

> I know TSRR is a state park and therefore
> gets state funds and Im told if it werent
> for that and the use of prison labor they
> would not be able to make it.

Probably so. Operating rail museums are expensive.

> So how do private groups stay afloat?

Lots of volunteer labor, donations of equipment and services, luck, and good scrounging skills.

> (I hope I get more response that my last two
> posts)
> Alan